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Original poster

Boris's Johnson, Liberalism, The BBC - it's all here..

175 replies

onebatmother · 03/05/2008 22:45

Anyone want to continue the sick-at-heart/flushed-with-triumph thread.

We were just discussing the BBC and liberalism.

OP posts:
IorekByrnison · 03/05/2008 23:42

Yes quite, onebat. We all missed Celebrity BB this year after last year's excitement. Thank God we had something to make up for it.

(OK stuffit I'm exaggerating, but I genuinely believe there was a significant element of this. I'm reasonably politically aware, but I find Boris' performance on Have I Got News For You sticks in my mind far more forcefully than anything he said he's planning to actually do for London.)

Onebat, that's nice about your ds - he'll love it!

CombustibleLemon · 03/05/2008 23:44

How much of the Boris/Brian Paddick vote was a protest vote against Labour? Do you think Ken would have won this election as an independent candidate?

Swedes · 03/05/2008 23:48

Edam - The turnout for European elections is low due to democratic deficit - nothing to do with the voting system.

policywonk · 03/05/2008 23:49

Argh, sorry stuffit, that was a festival of cross-posting

Yes, your point was rather cheering Swedes. Whatever one thinks of the candidates, this was a genuinely lively election that aroused real interest.

Original poster
onebatmother · 03/05/2008 23:51

Policy, you are absolutely right to be distressed. I think stuffit was being flip though, not meanie.

Lots of people on the last thread told me "hey, that's democracy!"

Completely missing my point.

Is it possible to teach individual democratic responsiblity?

OP posts:
policywonk · 03/05/2008 23:53

I wouldn't say that I'm distressed, exactly. Tetchy, maybe.

Original poster
onebatmother · 03/05/2008 23:53

Swedes, I'll pick it up - what's your analysis of the 50% increase for Ken?

OP posts:
policywonk · 03/05/2008 23:54

Going to watch West Wing now. Now THERE'S a programme with a liberal bias.

CombustibleLemon · 03/05/2008 23:56
Original poster
onebatmother · 03/05/2008 23:56
OP posts:
IorekByrnison · 03/05/2008 23:57

I think votes were up for Ken because a lot of people were very worried indeed by the idea of Boris Johnson as mayor.

edam · 03/05/2008 23:57

Well yes, Swedes, I agree re. democractic deficit, but it shows PR is not really a great turn on for swathes of otherwise disconnected voters.

All the many attempts at tinkering with the voting methodology has achieved is to give us a system that, in the words of one judge, would disgrace a banana republic. Should I have been so minded, I could have easily stolen enough votes to change the outcome of the local elections in my area.

Original poster
onebatmother · 03/05/2008 23:58

Po-ol!you said you were distressed!
You are never tetchy. You are The Voice Of Reason.

OP posts:
edam · 03/05/2008 23:59

Anyway, it will be jolly interesting to see how Boris copes.

Original poster
onebatmother · 04/05/2008 00:00

Blimey Edam, really? Just out of interest, how would you have done that?

OP posts:
policywonk · 04/05/2008 00:02

Oh dear, sorry OBM. Not much brain today.

Combustible - I dunno whether Ken would have done much better as an independent tbh. Something that struck me on the other thread was the personal antipathy towards him from the (few) pro-Boris posters.

Swedes · 04/05/2008 00:02

Onebat - Turnout in the 2000 mayoralty elections was 34.3% and in 2004 turnout climbed to 36.95%. This year I think I read it was 45%.

edam · 04/05/2008 00:04

Seems postal votes are the real big opportunity, especially if you pretend there are 20 people living in each house. I think that's how they did it in Birmingham.

policywonk · 04/05/2008 00:04

I don't know that you can deduce that Edam. The electorate understands that voting for Euro MPs is like voting for PTA chair or something - the power is elsewhere. So people aren't going to turn out whatever the system.

Original poster
onebatmother · 04/05/2008 00:08

but what do you deduce from that Swedes?

OP posts:
Original poster
onebatmother · 04/05/2008 00:10

edam - how can you pretend there are 20 people living in each house? the council have to believe that the people are already living there, surely, before they send you that form that says - are the following people still living at this address..?

OP posts:
edam · 04/05/2008 00:12

yes but politicians present reform of voting methods as if it is the answer to disengagement. Clearly voting methods are not actually the main issue - if they were, people would be so thrilled by PR they would rush out to use it if given the opportunity.

I think disengagement is about what politicians actually do and the way political debate is framed. Not so much how they get there.

Swedes · 04/05/2008 00:14

I deduce that this mayoral result has greater democratic weight than the last result.

[supeiror grin emoticon]

edam · 04/05/2008 00:14

They did it in Birmingham - has been managed in several known cases of voter fraud. Once someone made a complaint and the authorities actually checked it's clear that it's ludicrous - some of the houses were clearly far to small to be occupied by two dozen people but no-one had actually though 'hang on'.

But it's only ever picked up when someone challenges the outcome of the election - could be far more widespread. No-one bothers to check, it seems.

Swedes · 04/05/2008 00:16

Edam - we live in the same lovely town. If one person voted Labour the police would be called. Fuck knows what would happen if 20 people vote labour, from the same address.