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Do I agree with farmers?

153 replies

JudesBiggestFan · 19/11/2024 16:24

I'm generally politically aware but on this issue of farmers' inheritance tax, I can't decide/figure out from the media coverage if it's a good or bad plan?
Jeremy Clarkson's involvement has not helped me feel any sympathy for farmers , but I may well be wrong! For all the protest and hullabaloo...is it worth doing?

OP posts:
SwordToFlamethrower · 19/11/2024 17:29

Hatty65 · 19/11/2024 16:41

My brother farms 200 acres, mostly cereal in Lincolnshire. That's a pretty small farm. It's arable land, roughly £10,000 an acre and so on paper is worth £2m. That's without the tractors and combine needed to run it. It was originally bought and paid for by our great grandfather pre WW1. It's a small, family farm that just about keeps going.

For his son to pay IT on it means he'll have to sell off so many acres to pay the tax demanded that he can't farm it and make a living any longer, so the whole thing will be sold for huge amounts to go to the government, even though they pay tax on everything they earn off the land. That means his son (who works the farm with him) will have to give up farming as soon as my brother dies and find some other job to do. He's currently late 20s and farming is all he's done.

You decide if that's fair.

www.sustainweb.org/blogs/nov24-farming-budget-inheritance-tax-apr/

"The new rules introduce a threshold: combined agricultural and business property assets up to £1 million will still receive 100% relief, but anything above that will be taxed at an effective rate of 20%, payable over ten years interest-free.

However, there are notable caveats: farmers may avoid the tax by transferring property at least seven years before death. Many will also be able to take advantage standard household tax allowances if the farm is owned by a couple, potentially pushing up amount they can pass on tax free to £3 million.

The tax-free allowances will vary depending across farms, and given the historically high value of agricultural land, machinery, and buildings, many farm businesses will now need to prepare for inheritance tax in ways that were previously unnecessary.

Why is this tax being introduced?
The rationale behind the changes is clear: for decades, farmland has served as a tax shelter for the wealthy. Introduced in 1992, the inheritance tax exemption for farmland allowed multi-millionaires, and in some cases billionaires, to avoid significant tax liabilities. Economist Tim Leunig pointed out that farmland became "the best way to leave £100 million to your kids," exacerbating wealth inequality and inflating land prices in the process.

These inflated prices have made it difficult for new farmers to enter the industry, for tenant farmers to purchase the land they work, and for communities to buy land when it comes up for sale. In this sense, the uncapped relief has been detrimental to farming. Labour’s introduction of a cap aims to close this loophole and prevent land from being a convenient tax dodge for the ultra-rich."

EuclidianGeometryFan · 19/11/2024 17:36

Except that it will still be a tax loophole. Because tax at 20% is better than 40%, so the tax-dodgers will still buy up farmland.
The tax needs to be equalised with any other asset or business at 40%.

They do need to allow any landowner/farmer over about 60 or 70 to pass on the land now without the 7-year limit. Then phase in the 7 year limit.

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 19/11/2024 17:41

OldJohn · 19/11/2024 16:31

I don't see why farmers should get any special treatment. If a person died and left an engineering business worth £900,000 to his children, they would need to pay inheritance tax on roughly £580,000 of it. Why should a farming business worth the same amount be exempt?

I 100% oppose any inheritance tax we work to provide for our kids which doesn't stop at 18 so they should get everything when we are no longer able to help.

Farming is even worse tho as for an engineering business with a significant turn over you could mortgage a percentage to raise the cash. Farms do not have that cash flow by and large in this country.

FennelFan · 19/11/2024 17:44

We need the money as a country. Farmers will still get a very favourable deal compared to others. Think of it as austerity but for landowners.

kittybiscuits · 19/11/2024 17:45

I didn't feel very sorry for the farmer the Tory MP was bleating about on radio 4 this morning, who owns £8m worth of farmland and is thinking of killing himself before the deadline so there is no inheritance tax to pay. It's just greed.

urghhh47 · 19/11/2024 17:55

I stand with the farmers. I am not a farmer but live in rural south lincs on a small holding in the middle of farms producing fresh produce and cereal crops. The changes are nonsensical.

Copernicus321 · 19/11/2024 18:00

There are still options open for IHT planning but these take time to put in place. Farmers will need to take advice and the property assets may need to be structured in a way to avoid falling foul of the reservation of benefit test. It's a change, nobody likes change. There is also a lack of lead in which for genuine farmers in their older years who need to hand on the farm to the next generation is a problem.

A lot of the noise is coming from owners who have purchased farms for the purpose of avoiding IHT rather than to handing on the farm to the next generation as a genuine operation. In the locality where I live (East Sussex), there isn't what I call a genuine farm for quite some distance, they are all non-productive smaller farms sub-250 acres owned by professional types for use as tax shelters.

CortadoPlease · 19/11/2024 18:03

kittybiscuits · 19/11/2024 17:45

I didn't feel very sorry for the farmer the Tory MP was bleating about on radio 4 this morning, who owns £8m worth of farmland and is thinking of killing himself before the deadline so there is no inheritance tax to pay. It's just greed.

How ridiculous to think that taking your life is preferable to ‘only’ leaving 80% of £5m to your children 🙄 (a married couple have the first £3m of assets that are not subject to IHT).

rainydaysandrainbows · 19/11/2024 18:06

OldJohn · 19/11/2024 16:31

I don't see why farmers should get any special treatment. If a person died and left an engineering business worth £900,000 to his children, they would need to pay inheritance tax on roughly £580,000 of it. Why should a farming business worth the same amount be exempt?

Because it's part of the security of the nation that we can produce some of our food. This change in the law won't exactly increase the amount we produce.

username358 · 19/11/2024 18:11

kittybiscuits · 19/11/2024 17:45

I didn't feel very sorry for the farmer the Tory MP was bleating about on radio 4 this morning, who owns £8m worth of farmland and is thinking of killing himself before the deadline so there is no inheritance tax to pay. It's just greed.

He sounds like someone to listen to.

Firealarm1414 · 19/11/2024 18:12

Zonder · 19/11/2024 17:23

Farmers have been getting special treatment. They don't want that to stop even though the government plans will still give them special treatment. IHT at half the normal rate with 10 years to pay it back.

They get 'special treatment' because they literally produce the countries food. Is it really that hard to understand ? Why would you want to discourage food production by seizing land from farmers which is basically what this is? Do you like food shortages and increased prices? because thats how you get them

WhitegreeNcandle · 19/11/2024 18:12

Nespressso · 19/11/2024 17:06

@WhitegreeNcandle surprised at this. I am also from a farming family and I don’t know anyone who agrees this is a good idea - not just from their own perspective / whether they personally will be affected but more in breaking up the fundamental fabric of the countryside and the effect it will have on food security.

what sort of farmer are you, and why do you agree with it? How long has your farm been in your family for? What ramifications will this have for you?

To be fair I do think there are issues with the policy, not only that it doesn’t touch the sides with rollover and still allows the Clarksons of this world a 20% discount on inheritance tax. I also think there should be exemptions for the elderly and possibly for unmarried farmers.

I from a farming family. 4th generation. Will most definitely affect my inheritance. However, it’s completely avoidable for my parents but they are choosing to not gift the land and therefore I will have to sell land to pay it one day. Their choice and it does make me angry but at them, not the government.

Married to a livestock farmer. Have already met with accountants and land agents and will
be putting things in place. If in laws died the day this comes in we would owe hundreds of thousands of pounds. But, my dh will be inheriting something very valuable so when I take food to the food bank on a weekly basis I’m not sure I can look people in the eye when I say I have to pay 20% tax on anything over 3 million.

Zonder · 19/11/2024 18:13

Firealarm1414 · 19/11/2024 18:12

They get 'special treatment' because they literally produce the countries food. Is it really that hard to understand ? Why would you want to discourage food production by seizing land from farmers which is basically what this is? Do you like food shortages and increased prices? because thats how you get them

It actually is hard to understand. I don't understand why farmers keep farms as their own property rather than set up a business.

Changingplace · 19/11/2024 18:20

Zonder · 19/11/2024 18:13

It actually is hard to understand. I don't understand why farmers keep farms as their own property rather than set up a business.

This is what I don’t get, why are farms not classed as businesses anyway, when they are businesses?

username358 · 19/11/2024 18:22

What did farmers do before the 90s when IHT was stopped? Were there other exemptions in place or did they simply pay IHT?

Sadcafe · 19/11/2024 18:27

As with any things in politics, it’s who do you believe, the government and some economists say it will affect only a very small number of farms once all the allowances and laws on passing to spouses are taken into account, the farmers seem to suggest it affects every single one of them, as others have said, if you had any other sort of business and it was worth over three million, you’d pay inheritance tax, so why exactly should farms be different, I don’t know the answer

crumblingschools · 19/11/2024 18:28

Businesses got IHT relief too

allthecoffee100 · 19/11/2024 18:28

kittybiscuits · 19/11/2024 17:45

I didn't feel very sorry for the farmer the Tory MP was bleating about on radio 4 this morning, who owns £8m worth of farmland and is thinking of killing himself before the deadline so there is no inheritance tax to pay. It's just greed.

But you're missing the point.

His land may be worth £8m but it's an illiquid asset. Farms are getting less than 1% returned on that capital, and that farm likely supports 2-3 families with all farmers working +70 hour weeks every week of the year, so there is no spare money to pay IHT. Which means the assets that generate the tiny return are sold off and the farm becomes unviable.

user9086572 · 19/11/2024 18:28

Gifting the land isn't straight forward since you cannot retain an interest in the land. Most farmers need to live in the farmhouse.

allthecoffee100 · 19/11/2024 18:31

user9086572 · 19/11/2024 18:28

Gifting the land isn't straight forward since you cannot retain an interest in the land. Most farmers need to live in the farmhouse.

Exactly.
Those saying "just" do this seem to have become tax experts overnight without really understanding the implications.
Most farmers literally farm til they drop and need somewhere to live!

ComfortandHappiness · 19/11/2024 18:32

OldJohn · 19/11/2024 16:31

I don't see why farmers should get any special treatment. If a person died and left an engineering business worth £900,000 to his children, they would need to pay inheritance tax on roughly £580,000 of it. Why should a farming business worth the same amount be exempt?

Because who is going to buy a farm? Who do you want to buy it?

It doesn't matter how much it's worth unless you're selling it.

Farmers may have the money tied up in the land, but not the money to pay.

If farmers can't afford to pay and have to sell up, who will buy the farm? Not another farmer, but businesses.

What will the businesses do? Probably build houses.

The bottom line is we need farms. It's a hard job.

coldcallerbaiter · 19/11/2024 18:34

OldJohn · 19/11/2024 16:31

I don't see why farmers should get any special treatment. If a person died and left an engineering business worth £900,000 to his children, they would need to pay inheritance tax on roughly £580,000 of it. Why should a farming business worth the same amount be exempt?

There is BPR so there are exemptions

crumblingschools · 19/11/2024 18:35

@OldJohn can you explain where your figures come from with respect to IHT on engineering business?

Before RR changed the rules for business relief some businesses qualified for 100% IHT relief

KoalaCalledKevin · 19/11/2024 18:48

Hatty65 · 19/11/2024 16:41

My brother farms 200 acres, mostly cereal in Lincolnshire. That's a pretty small farm. It's arable land, roughly £10,000 an acre and so on paper is worth £2m. That's without the tractors and combine needed to run it. It was originally bought and paid for by our great grandfather pre WW1. It's a small, family farm that just about keeps going.

For his son to pay IT on it means he'll have to sell off so many acres to pay the tax demanded that he can't farm it and make a living any longer, so the whole thing will be sold for huge amounts to go to the government, even though they pay tax on everything they earn off the land. That means his son (who works the farm with him) will have to give up farming as soon as my brother dies and find some other job to do. He's currently late 20s and farming is all he's done.

You decide if that's fair.

Is your brother married?

If not, he should be able to pass on £1.5m tax free, then it's 20% of £500k, payable over 10 years (interest free).

If he is married, it would all be free from IHT.