had a chuckle over zoe williams on french woman in the grauniad yesterday...

[BoysOnToast]

article here

am going to take up saying 'bof' to stuff.

LOL at Bellabear's "antinatal" comment

DO NOT GET PREGNANT, LADIES!!!

yes, at anti natal.

'anti natal' is what ZW's column is called. (Sorry to be deflating...)

oh pw, you antiflating thing you...

bof

plop

pffffft

Ah, I don't have the fringe for that one. Anyone lend me a filterless Gauloise?

Oh bugger

utterly deflated

(Zoe Williams fan here btw )

I wasn't being stupid!!!!

i thought you were being clever actually BB, but see now it was ZW's cleverness anyway

Oh. Also deflated!

Bof!

LOL, at the article.

The so-called Inner French Girl ideal fuels the over-priced luxury French cosmetics and over-egged French fashion industry, so I wonder if there is some clever marketing going on in perpetuating the stereotype.

Are French women really so shallow?

blueshoes - French people (not just women) pay more attention, on average, than English people, to grooming, beauty, fashion and generally wanting to look attractive.

Do you think that the French are shallow and the English "deeper" for that? I think it is just a cultural difference.

Personally I can't find anything deep about not caring for one's physical appearance unless it is to the detriment of other important aspects of the personality.

Anna, I appreciate it is just an article so glad you can offer your own perspective as a British-born woman living in Paris.

Do you think that on the whole French women develop their looks to the detriment of other aspects of their personality? It is a huge generalisation of course but I am interested in your views.

For example, I don't know if you frquent other French-equivalent message boards. Personally, I find mn - which features (it has to be said) predominantly British women's views very fascinating in its depth and width of perspective.

No, I don't frequent any other message boards than this one - no time

Obviously, anyone who spends an excesssive proportion of their time and energy on their appearance will have less time and energy for other things.

As a massive generalisation, I would say that French women spend more time on their appearance and on their public persona (including work) than English women. French women spend less time than English women on domestic pursuits, including housework, childcare, home decorating, gardening (what's that?). Middle-class French women read much less (fiction and news) than English women - they tend to think that their intellectual stimulation should come from work. All that makes them very different to English women.

But I generally find that the French women I know well are very loyal and deep friends. The initial getting-to-know period is very long here, but once you do know someone it goes very far indeed.

thanks, Anna, that is interesting. I am sure French women can make good friends.

If French women generally believe their intellectual stimulation should come from work, where do French SAHMs get their intellectual stimulation from? Is it all work and family then?

Still appreciate I am requiring you to generalise.

One of my best friends is French and it has to be said that she is very preoccupied with her weight and serves herself tiny portions while loading everyone elses plates up. She also has immaculately plucked and beautifully shaped arched eyebrows. Her hair can be a bit of a mess though - she once told me that English hairdressers do not understand French hair. (?!)

France has one of the lowest rates of SAHMs in the developed world. SAHMs are mostly from four social segments: either extreme of the economic spectrum, super-Cathos (very Catholic families) and foreign-born wives. The super-Cathos are usually pretty busy with their familles nombreuses, I really don't know much about the very poor (think immigrants in horrible out-of-town housing estates), rich French SAHMs often have four (or more) children (so again, pretty busy) as this is a socially acceptable alternative to work and foreign-born wives have their own circuits and associations.

Anna, as a rosbif married to a Frenchman and living in France I agree with most of you commentary. One hugely positive aspect I find here though is the high regard with whih SAHM's are regarded compared to the UK. I have 3 children and am going back to work after a hefty 6 year break in July and have been practically vilified even contemplating leaving my youngest with a nounou (childminder), especially as my husband has a 'significant' career, it seems to be out of the norm for a woman to want to work largely for intellectual satisfication and not when bourne out of necessity.

That's interesting, NicMac.

That's not a very common position in the circles we move in. Most women work and find it indispensable to do so, even though financially it may not be necessary.

My sister's MIL loves flashing her "mère de famille nombreuse" card around, though

That't not an attitude I've come across either, NicMac, lucky you! Whereabouts do you live?

I have taken a congé parental to look after my toddler until he starts school and be available for my older children, and I can't say anyone has been any more or less respectful of me as a SAHM. I find people are just curious as to why a mother would choose to to stay at home when there is cheap childcare and paid work out there!

castille - have you read reviews/taken a look at the most recent books by Claude Halmos and Aldo Naouri, both clamouring for a return to great parental authority^?

Anna - I haven't read either, but I did see the Claude Halmos at the library the other day and wondered if it was worth a read. I find the French approach to discipline generally at odds with my own.

Perhaps I should read them, they might provide an insight into the medieval discipline methods (involving a riding crop) favoured by a family of the haute bourgeoisie at the girls' school, with which I am currently fascinated (in a disbelieving kind of way).

Anna - I haven't read either, but I did see the Claude Halmos at the library the other day and wondered if it was worth a read. I find the French approach to discipline generally at odds with my own.

Perhaps I should read them, they might provide an insight into the medieval discipline methods (involving a riding crop) favoured by a family of the haute bourgeoisie at the girls' school, with which I am currently fascinated (in a disbelieving kind of way).