Shamima Begum Bid for Citizenship Rejected

[SlightlyJaded]

Not sure how I feel about this. I've recently listened to the (excellent) BBC Sounds podcast (season two of 'I'm not a Monster ) and there are a number of interviews with her which swayed me in different directions when listening.

I had originally agreed with the ruling to strip her - going along with the rhetoric that, yes she was fifteen, but she knew exactly what she was signing up for, and had seemed completely unrepentant and pro-Isis in her interviews.

Now, following the podcast, I'm not so sure. There are certainly times where she sounds unrepentant. But there are times when she explains that she could not - on many occasions - speak out against ISIS for fear of being killed. And there are times when she talks about being an easy person to 'make an example of' and it sounds quite convincing.

She was fifteen. Shy and ripe for exploitation.

She has lost three children.

Her friends are dead.

But... but... she actively went to a Caliphate and bought into the ideology. She married (willingly) a very active ISIS member and chose to stay even when things started to fall apart.

I think it all comes down to how much 'choice' she actually had once she arrived and how much she was indoctrinated into going in the first place. It's a tricky one and I'm torn.

Anyone else have a more clear view?

I agree. Teenagers do stupid things, and this was the ultimate 'stupid thing.'

I suppose the question is did she go there because she was coerced/mistreated/radicalised/groomed in some way? Or did she really believe in what she was doing, does she still believe? How have those beliefs changed so that she would be absolutely no risk today?

I think there is an element of her being easy to make an example of, it's a very tricky one, I can imagine there would be absolute uproar if she was allowed back.

SB is vile as are all the others of her ilk. She and the others who went there knew exactly what they were doing. I don’t believe she feels any remorse. However I do feel strongly that the UK should have taken responsibility for its citizens(not that she is one now). Other countries have taken back their citizens. Leaving her and others like her there is just shifting responsibility for them onto someone else. UK citizens should be returned and incarcerated if necessary. This would probably prove be hugely unpopular with the British public. There is also the problem of where to put people like this and the expense involved. She’s likely to stay there forever. Maybe it will set an example to others thinking of doing similar?

@CombatLingerie Agree about taking responsibility. There is someone on the podcast talking about exactly this. Germany/Denmark/Norway and various other countries have repatriated and imprisoned (or not) their citizens who joined the Caliphate, but Shamima et al are still - and indefinitely - in a camp in Syria with no citizenship and so further pressure on a country that is already on its knees.

It's been playing on my mind since listening to the podcast and I look at DD (18) and think she is still a child. Fifteen....? Could she really be responsible. I just don't know.

She was 15, she could not possibly have known the full extent of what she was getting into. She certainly didn't know that she would be harmed by her husband.

What she did was absolutely wrong. As with any (former) British citizen she should come back here to be detained IMO. I'm not sure whether she broke UK law? If not, she should be detained in a MH facility.
Her H and ISIS I know her H was in ISIS, she has been brainwashed and needs help to untangle that.

As a teenager I was an idiot, they all are. Developmentally, 15 year olds don't always make the right decisions.
I certainly didn't, and thank actual fuck I didn't get make a mess this big when I was in my teens.

You reep what you sow!
I'm glad she can't come back it's too great of a risk.

Are you British black, brown or of Asian decent? Are you Jewish? From Northern Ireland? Have a foreign parent,granny or spouse?

If so, you should be worried about this.

Shemima Begum, a British child who was groomed and trafficked has been made stateless scapegoat by our government and ISIS. It's a fucking disgrace and many British people are at risk because of this ruling.

A British teenager was groomed and conditioned to adopt radical beliefs whilst living in the UK. She was in that environment for quite some time and has likely committed crimes. At this point, she has lived her adult life in a war zone and camp.

Why is it a surprise that a brainwashed young woman, who has had no access to the psychological treatment she probably needs is potentially unrepentant? She has probably seen and has been involved in terrible things. She has had three children who have died. Her path into adulthood is not one that would lead to a psychologically sound person. The more I think about it, the more this expectation is unreasonable tbh. It is also irrelevant. She is British so she’s the UK’s problem. She should be repatriated and tried.

The thing is, they're damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

for example take the recent media reports of Ezedi who threw acid on a family in London recently, that ended up focusing on why he was even let into the UK with his convictions and essentially free to commit further crime against women

now Shamima originally had UK citizenship but it would cause a media uproar if she was to return to the UK and commit further crime. There’s implicit risk involved as she poses a threat to the UK and is proven to be susceptible to terrorist indoctrination- that won’t stop overnight. If the government can fight her return, they will. The only way I could see this playing out without an absolute uproar is if she was imprisoned on return and heavily monitored but we don’t have the resource for that. Ultimately her wellbeing isn’t worth the risk to the wellbeing of the rest of the country

If born and bred British citizen Shemima Begum poses a risk, why should any other country have to burden that risk?

I don't know what her life was like before she left the UK, but I have spoken to some young Muslim women who have difficult lives here in the UK. Some of them come from wealthy families where everything appears ideal. But underneath the surface there's a conflict between fitting in the modern world and meeting family expectations, with little margin for error--if you get it wrong, you can be shunned and dishonoured. In a devout family, the only way out might be through an arranged marriage and may require waiting until all the older sisters are married first.

In those circumstances, I can see how a vulnerable girl could make a bad decision to escape with the knowledge that she would have a husband waiting for her.

Why should the UK burden any risk if they don’t need to? Ultimately by exhausting the legal process the government are doing the right thing. If she’s deemed to be able to return to the UK, at least in the eyes of the public, the government tried everything they to prevent this obviously controversial decision. At this moment, she’s a burden on everyone through her own decisions and there is a risk to public safety

she will likely be susceptible to being indoctrinated again for the rest of her life, it’s not something she can easily rehabilitate from and she will always be an easy target. She would need round the clock monitoring to not be a risk to security. There’s no need for the UK government to rush into accommodating her return. It has long term implications

plus what other countries are being burdened? She’s in Syria who seemingly welcomed her in to be part of IS, not accidentally roped in and now “burdened”. If she’s entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship then that is due to Bangladesh law - so it’s not that Bangladesh has accidentally been burdened with her either. If anything, they could have revoked her citizenship before the UK did which presumably would have meant the UK would need to accept her.

Shemima Begum is British. She was born here. She was schooled here. She is just as British as you are @Thorntone.

Why do we not just strip all those suspected of crimes of their Statehood? Send them on a free holiday then not let them back in? It would be much cheaper than pesky trials, prisons and rehabilitation right?

Why should we bear any risk or responsibility if we don't have to?

I think what goes a miss with SM is that why did a 15 year old want to decide to join ISIS in the first place. What sort of family life did she come from?

Your point about "willingly" marrying..... I mean, in some cultures the term "willingly" married someone isn't that. They have NO choice I'm referring to UK also.

This is where UK is slack as usual they really should of demanded her back. I doubt anywhere like Australia would have tolerated it. UK are slack about many things and very leanient sentences in general. It does boil down to skin tone I'm afraid.

If the government acts lawfully then what’s the issue? her appeal was unsuccessful Ultimately the law leads to tough decisions being made to uphold it, and this is no exception.

Quite. Ignorance is bliss and those who don't have anywhere "to go back to" are clearly all too ignorant to view the bigger picture because it doesn't affect them potentially.

I strongly disagree.

The decision was made in 2019. At that time, it did not make her stateless. If the decision had made her stateless, the decision would have been illegal, and the courts would have overruled it.

We don't know the evidence that she is a threat, but we do know that the courts have looked at the evidence and have decided that there was enough evidence for the then Home Secretary to conclude that she is indeed a threat. That isn't the same as the courts saying they agree she is a threat, however.

The open judgement in the latest case is available at Begum v SSHD - CA-2023-000900 - 2024 EWCA Civ 152 (judiciary.uk). Note that there is also a closed judgement which deals with matters that aren't in the public domain.

There is no Justice without mercy. She was immature and easily led. We all did silly things once. I think she should be allowed back

Strongly agree with prh47bridge's post.
The appeal was based on the original case which wouldn't have made her stateless.
She rolled the dice and lost.
As I understand it she was entitled to claim automatic Bangladeshi citizenship by virtue of parental links until she was 21.
She chose not to follow that route after uk government stripped her of citizenship so was not left stateless.
It's not a new case where she's been refused citizenship.
If nothing else it's a matter of law.
In this case nothing else should be considered

Is mercy more important than the law? If that’s the case then why bother prosecuting anyone, if there is no justice without mercy?

What she did can’t merely be reduced to “silly things”. It’s not like she lost her keys!

The brutality of ISIS was common knowledge in 2015. She was 15 but wasn’t completely naive - there was a high state of threat for terror attacks even at places like Westfield, viral videos of beheadings and a general fear of ISIS in 2015. She had the internet at her fingertips to see the truth, it’s not like the horrors were kept secret especially within London.

Even if you say she was “kidnapped” in 2015, she later made a series of consistent/illegal judgement calls with terrorist group involvement spanning years. Unwilling participant initially but became a participant nonetheless? She relented when IS failed. Was there any evidence she tried to leave or report her peers before then? Any evidence she tried to prevent further death and harm? Has she attempted to inform the UK government of any terrorist intelligence?

she will remain susceptible to wrong influences for the rest of her life. What sort of life would she have in the UK? Extensive mental health treatment and monitoring. Her life definitely wouldn’t be “merciful”.

Absolutely the correct decision. We already have more than enough Islamist terrorists in this country, so the last thing we need is another. She made her choice, so let her rot where she is.

What does the research say about teenagers, groomed children and the work of Prevent?

All of the moralising surrounding Shamima is really rather futile when you realise there wasn't a hope in hell she'd A) be allowed back B) retain her citizenship. The biggest issue she faced was less her actions but more that she's not white. It's that black and white, to borrow a phrase.

She was radicalised here.

The authorities knew what was being planned, so they sent them home with a letter addressed to the girls' parents.

The UK is much better equipped to deal with a threat than Syria or Bangladesh (correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't she face the death penalty if she goes there?).

Britain is responsible for her.

We didn't take the citizenship of NI terrorists.