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Bear Stearns - anyone else worried? Any thoughts or predictions?

131 replies

Callisto · 17/03/2008 08:40

I must admit that this has got me quite worried and the effects are being felt globally as the Asian stock markets have fallen. What does everyone else think?

OP posts:
Scampmum · 17/03/2008 14:20

Not sure enough to move ours from NS&A although that's more because a) I am lazy (same reason I didn't buy gold in August - grr!) and b) wasn't sure how the guarantee would work in practice if the bank failed i.e. how long it might take to get cash back. Assume now, though, that bank can't fail (unless UK govt defaults, in which case we're all in serious trouble) so depositors should all be OK. Certainly safer than e.g. Barclays/HSBC/HBOS. And to your earlier question, a low loan/deposit ratio would typically be a good sign BUT deposits, whilst they are generally treated as having a long duration/maturity, can also be fickle, as we saw in the case of NR. Wholesale funded banks could be safe if they had a good term structure i.e. fewer near-term liquidity needs.

cestlavie · 17/03/2008 14:41

As Cote d'Azur said, the problem with both Northern Rock and Bear Stearns were mis-matched assets and liabilties, or more simply, they got their funding on a short term basis but invested on a long term basis. They were/ are not alone in this, and many hedge funds have similar funding structures. What triggered the crisis in both institutions was not problems with non-performing loans (e.g. sub-prime mortgages) - the full effect of that is still to be felt - the problem was more simply that the people lending to NR and BS (their investors) thought there may be a problem with these institutions (not without a level of merit) and decided that they wanted their money back - now.

Now if someone's lending to you on a 30 day basis, and all your money's invested in multi-year investments, and the person lending you that money calls it in, the only way you can pay them back is by liquidating those investments - et voila, you have a perfect storm.

  • investors become concerned about BS
  • some investors demand their money back from BS
  • BS is forced to sell liquid assets to repay investors
  • market hears BS is selling and assumes concerns are justified
  • investors become more concerned about BS
  • more investors demand their money back etc

The real concern about the current crisis is not the underlying credit quality of these investments like sub-prime mortgages. Clearly that is a worry to some extent, what is an absolute concern is market sentiment and perception which is and will continue to damage perfectly healthy firms and funds - nobody is quite sure of any one firm/ fund's individual exposure and so is assuming the worst. As an example, the $2 billion Peloton fund, which was invested solely in high quality mortgages collapsed a couple of weeks ago, solely based on (unmerited) investor concern about the quality of these mortages, as in the cycle above. Once people act on fears, however unjustified, those fears become self-fulfilling.

The only way to resolve this crisis in the short term is for confidence to return to the market - the central banks are doing their best, witness the Fed's assisted bail-out of BS and Bank of England's £5bn capital injection this morning. Unfortunately, they're also caught in a vicious circle - the market lacks confidence and thinks the worst, central bank steps in to provide more money, market thinks "shit, it must bad if the central bank is stepping in", confidence worsens. Not sure how this gets sorted in the short term. Good results from the investment banks this week would help.

For home owners/ personal borrowers, my feel is that there's going to be a real divergence between poor quality credits and good quality credits. If you have a poor credit rating, unfortunately, it's going to be hard to get credit (be it mortgages or credit cards) on decent terms - lenders are pulling back from those markets and those that are staying in are pushing up their rates significantly. If you can get it, you'll be paying a lot more for it, Bleak, but sadly likely to be very true. If you've got a good credit rating, on the other hand, you may actually be in a better position. Firstly, it's likely we'll see interest rates come down over the next 6-12 months which will mean a lower cost of borrowing for, for example, variable rate mortgages. Secondly, these lenders still have to deploy capital - if they're not lending to people with lower credit ratings, they're going to be fighting over people with higher quality ratings. I'd imagine, if you have a good rating, that you may be able to get more attractive deals than previously.

I stand, of course, to be proven to be speaking absolutely bollocks, but that's how it seems to me....

TheQueenMother · 17/03/2008 14:48

Fascinating thread, some great analysis here. It comes to something when people are worried about how safe banks are in terms of where to deposit their cash.

PrincessPeaHead · 17/03/2008 15:01

I think the interesting thing about northern rock it has going forward is that it may act as a brake on the profit some of the high street banks are going to try and make on mortgages

If interest rates fall (likely) those banks are going to try and make profits from their mortgage customers by FAILING to pass on the decreases in interest rates. But Northern Rock (effectively a government entity) will have to pass on the interest rate falls, or it makes a nonsense of the whole thing. Nationwide will probably pass them on quickly as well, being mutual and not having the same debt exposure - so the high street banks will have to follow those two or else be in serious danger of being called a cartel

Never thought I'd say this but I think Northern Rock maysave us all a few pence in mortgage interest
(obviously it will cost us more in tax but there you go)

PrincessPeaHead · 17/03/2008 15:03

That first sentence is appalling!
Try again

I think the interesting thing about northern rock going forward, is that it may act as a brake on the profits that some of the high street banks will try and make on mortgage customers.

Is that better?!

GermaineSneer · 17/03/2008 15:03

i am losing sleep over htis

noddyholder · 17/03/2008 15:17

pph why is being a mutual safer.I have a fair bit in Nationwide and would like to keep it there as I am getting v good rate

figroll · 17/03/2008 16:21

"NR?s mortgage book is essentially prime (i.e. people borrowing typically 2-3 time salary with good credit history"

Offering mortgages of 125% is hardly prime!! House prices don't have to fall for these people to be in negative equity.

TheBlonde · 17/03/2008 16:23

NY Times is suggesting 1/3 of Bear's staff could be laid off

Flight · 17/03/2008 16:29

Can banks change their existing interest rates, say on a fixed rate loan? Bit worried as I still owe 3.5 grand on a loan.

Twinkie1 · 17/03/2008 16:32

Figroll - I will have to get DH to come on and back himself up, he has been doing this for years and is v successful, most of his funds are top performers in the market so I just listen to him!

He I presume knows what he is talking about being in this market - their (Granite!) books were essentially prime - not all prime but far more than other lenders.

Thats it though - will show him this tonight but won't be pulled back into the arguement when really am just picking his brains as I am clueless!

seb1 · 17/03/2008 16:34

NH, the Nationwide being mutal is safer as they have no shareholders

soapbox · 17/03/2008 16:39

I'm on a mission to find out whether our offset mortgage - whereby our morgage is completely offset by a considerable amount of savings, is legally offset in the event of a bank failure.

I'd be pissed off if we got the £35k maximum each on the savings but were stuck with the debt!

dustyeastar · 17/03/2008 16:46

You should be fine if its a fixed rate loan flight.

noddyholder · 17/03/2008 16:47

thanks seb1 x

Flight · 17/03/2008 17:34

Thanks Dusty

cestlavie · 17/03/2008 17:36

Twinkie: your DH is absolutely right. The NR mortgage obligations transferred into/ pledged to Granite were indeed (relatively) high quality securities. The problem with NR's portfolio is not so much with Granite, but more those mortgages which were not transferred/ pledged to Granite and which were typically lower quality/ worse credits and which were left directly with NR.

CoteDAzur · 17/03/2008 17:37

Flight - Your bank can't change the fixed rate on your loan.

CoteDAzur · 17/03/2008 17:38

Twinkie - It would be great to have your DH here at some point, if he could bear with us. I for one would love to hear his perspective.

Earlybird · 18/03/2008 12:53

I'm amazed how quickly these companies go from awarding bumper executive bonuses to rumours of significant layoffs.

TheBlonde · 18/03/2008 15:14

bonuses were not bumper at Bear, indeed there were layoffs back in Dec

Twinkie1 · 18/03/2008 15:21

I'll ask him - he has only met a couple of mumsnetters and thinks they are lovely - he worse than me when it comes to arguing to get his point across so it may be a long one!

CoteDAzur · 18/03/2008 19:12

Fed cut rates by 75 bp to 2.25%.

dinny · 18/03/2008 19:14

what are they planning to do when they can't actually cut rates further, I wonder

inflation up in UK today

shit and fan

noddyholder · 18/03/2008 19:22

They are essentially lowering rates to get the whole thing going again but its too late I think.Its like lending people more to pay off current debts and get themselves further in it.If they follow suit here the £3 loaf of bread is coming

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