Anyone else doubting Lucy Letby's guilt?

[Nickersnackersnockers]

Don't know if I am allowed to share a link so please Google 'Science on Trial Lucy Letby'.

It's written by a scientist with no association to LL who is asking questions that were not addressed in court.

I am very disturbed by the article. Don't start slinging mud at me, make a large coffee, go read it, come back, and tell me what you think!

Ok, I don’t have an agenda. The OP asked if anyone else has doubts that Letby is guilty. I have doubts and I have posted why I have doubts. I have posted that I think the 110hrs of deliberation indicates to me that even jury members who saw all the evidence had doubts that had to be reconciled through lengthy discussions before verdicts were agreed on the charges.

I have no issue with our justice system as it allows for appeals because wrongful convictions do in fact happen. I have posted statistics on how often wrongful convictions happen for informational purposes as others have also posted pertinent informative statistics.

I am not the only poster that has doubts and is interested in Letby’s application to appeal her conviction.

I get you personally have no doubts and think the conviction was correct. I agree it is unlikely that this was a wrongful conviction, but I do have a smidgen of doubt that it might have been and am open to any new evidence that may come out if an appeal went forward.

I am not sure what your purpose is on this thread that is meant to be for posters that have doubts? I think you’ve made it very clear you have no doubts so this back and forth between you and I is not really necessary.

Most people who question her guilt believe that there are other more likely explanations for the unusual spike/increase in deaths. The dire conditions at the hospital at the time were well documented and there were good reasons why it was later downgraded. One theory is that there was an enterovirus outbreak in the hospital at the time, which could have led to a spike in deaths.
I haven’t heard anyone suggest that it was murder but by another person, for those who doubt LL’s guilt , that notion would be equally (if not more) far fetched.

Miss Lucy** they had c pap and some ventilation due to giving the body a rest but They were breathing at birth. They were never resuscitated. Yes they were vulnerable but not to the point they were expected to collapse suddenly and unexpectedly.

You may not believe it but it doesn't make it untrue! 🤷‍♀️

I am not sure what your purpose is on this thread that is meant to be for posters that have doubts? I think you’ve made it very clear you have no doubts so this back and forth between you and I is not really necessary.

The thread asked questions - do you have doubts.

I don't.

You do.

Both of our opinions are valid.

I agree that there is no point in us going back or forth but where you have posted things with a view to put doubt in minds of others I have commented that your doubts can be seen as a positive for the proposition that the correct outcome has been reached.

They may have been gasping at birth but that doesn’t mean they could sustain effective ventilation. Every 23 weeker requires resuscitation at birth. Resuscitation does not necessarily imply a cardiac or respiratory arrest.

It’s not relevant to Letby because she wasn’t nursing 23 weekers anyway, but any significantly premature baby can deteriorate unexpectedly.

The thread asked ‘Anyone else doubting Lucy Letby’s Guilt?’ not ‘do you have doubts?’

I have not posted with ‘a view to put doubt in the minds of others’ as this thread is for those of us who already have doubts and wish to discuss them and why we have them.

Your comments on my doubts were mostly on different doubts you speculated I might have. I think I cleared up most of the doubts you put in my mouth as not being mine.

ne child had damage to the upper gastro intestinal tract caused by trauma, 2 were spiked with insulin even letby didnt deny that, 1 had their diaphragm splintered and another had damage to the throat . I'm not sure an entrovirus would cause that

It’s not relevant to Letby because she wasn’t nursing 23 weekers anyway, but any significantly premature baby can deteriorate unexpectedly.

But the point I and others are making is that vulnerable at birth doesn't mean vulnerable forever.

Lots of these babies that collapsed unexpectedly weren't in the totally vulnerable category. One was 100 days old and sue to be discharged. They don't discharge babies they think will collapse suddenly and unexpectedly.

The 23 wheelers was sill on O2 and my tube at discharge. So not medically 100%. But not expected to collapse suddenly.

And yes they are lucky to be a healthy teen. Miracles really do happen.

Yes it's amazing how a severe liver injury like being in a car crash could have been caused by low staffing, dirty water and a variety of other unrelated things.

God forbid anyone thinks a trauma injury was caused by ......... trauma 👀

The splintered diaphragm was caused by excess air going in the naso-gastric tube. Low staffing resulting in hurried and sloppy feeding could have caused air to be pumped in when it shouldn’t have.

It's very hard to pump air through an ng tube.

Yes, pumping milk too quickly (called dumping) can cause issues but that's basic feeding technique that parents who tube feed know so I doubt any nurse did that accidentally.

And if they did they have no place in nursing. The risks are very well known.

Plus these babies being fed by tube we're having minuscule amounts. When you get over small ml amounts you use bolis gravity feeds or a pump.

So you just think she was sloppy then? She was in charge of 2 babies. Hardly rushed off her feet that night

TBH, given that you believe you know a 23 weeker wasn’t resuscitated at birth and subsequently, you know very little about neonatal medicine, so your views on the Letby case babies aren’t of much weight.

The very fact that sudden deterioration in neonates is not - on an individual basis - unusual- is what allowed Letby (assuming she is guilty) to get away with it for so long. If she had been killing- say- preschoolers who had just undergone dental extractions, she would probably have been detected immediately because sudden collapses in that group are genuinely extremely rare.

All of this is hypothesis, and disputed/
disputable.

Really 🙄

I just spent an unpleasant couple of hours reading about the case.

How do those who believe in her innocence account for what she wrote on the green post-it note?

I can see why a guilty verdict was returned.

TBH, given that you believe you know a 23 weeker wasn’t resuscitated at birth and subsequently, you know very little about neonatal medicine, so your views on the Letby case babies aren’t of much weight.

I do know. Your inability to accept the truth doesn't change it. I have no idea why posters want to argue the truth about babies not related to the case as if it strengthens their argument 🤦🏼‍♀️🤷‍♀️

What let her get away with it for so long was higher management refusing to believe staff complaints about her . It's really not usual for stable 30 odd weekers to suddenly die

Not at all.

Be interesting if a retrial decision will be made tomorrow. Not to mention any further charges.

Thinking of all the victims and their families.

It’s simply impossible for a 23 weeker not to require resuscitation. It’s like saying that the Earth is flat, then expecting your views on navigation to be taken seriously.

That is too simplistic. The management did not believe that the deaths were homicides precisely because the circumstances of each individual death was not that unusual. An independent review found the same.

Most babies born past 28 weeks survive but deaths are not that uncommon on an individual basis. Posters saying that Letby must be guilty because stable premature babies do not deteriorate out of the blue are simply wrong. It isn’t the norm but it happens. All ITU patients of all ages can deteriorate unexpectedly.

The crux of the Letby case is whether the spikes in deaths indicates a homicide or simply the natural variation of small numbers. Personally I think she is likely guilty because I agree with PPs that it’s hard to explain the insulin deaths any other way.

Funny that the staff on the floor actually looking after the babies didn't think it was usual

I doubt it's common for stable twins and triplets to suddenly collapse and die within days of each other either

The understaffing that was present when Letby was a nurse there is a matter of record. It is well known that understaffing in NICUs lead to fatal errors, as does understaffing in any hospital ward.

I have no thoughts other than being interested in seeing what the appeal may consist of if it goes forward. From what I have seen of the trial, I didn’t see much that was convincing in terms of intent to murder.

Not at all funny. Gut instincts tell us when something is wrong, but what they do not do is reliably pinpoint the source of what is wrong and why.

So she's back in the dock next year to face a further charge of attempted murder on child K, who couldn't get a verdict on most recently.

Thinking of those families who may never get answers, however.