To think this is NOT a good example of why the law should change around assisted suicide

[LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet]

www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-07-21/pensioner-who-killed-wife-in-suicide-pact-calls-for-law-change?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1ETDQNfb1DFNtznBTAi__qpBa-ivcvynJSwwAFXzaP3gFv6nRnyvsS_YU#Echobox=1658433729

A 71yo man slit the throat of his wife, who had cancer, and then tried (but failed) to kill himself. He claims this was a suicide pact.

he was found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter earlier this week. He is now apparently campaigning for a change in the law around assisted suicide.

Now this case has utterly perplexed me. The UK definition of manslaughter is:

”a person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when he or she intends an unlawful act that is likely to do harm to the person, and death results which was neither foreseen nor intended”

He did intend to kill so I’m not sure how that works out.

He’s getting loads of support on social media and some very supportive comments from the judge.

Personally I just don’t get it - ”assisted suicide” in such a violent and painful way, followed by the suicide of someone who is NOT terminally ill is not, IMO, a good example of why the law should change. I don’t necessarily disagree with the principles of assisted suicide, I think if we must have it it should be heavily regulated. This man says “nobody should have to go what we went through”. But he wasn’t ill, and it was such a horribly painful death for her. And being unable to live without your spouse, as he claims, can’t possibly be a good enough reason to have to legally commit suicide.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a horrific case and can’t understand why he’s getting so much support?!

Having your throat is a slow, horrific, painful and terrifying way to die

I do not believe for one minute that he wanted to give her a peaceful death out of love and grief

as he called 999 before he tried to kill himself, i wonder whether he was really prepared to die?

I thought that too, but he might not have wanted friends or family to find their dead bodies? Or to go undiscovered for a long time like this poor lady did.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/19276205/woman-dead-flat-two-years-peckham/

Yes that’s true there’s no evidence she agreed to this pact.

I don’t think her family (as in her brother) supporting him is relevant - her brother doesn’t speak for her, and never underestimate people’s denial in the truth and how easily they can be manipulated.

He is a prime example of why assisted death should be legalised and regulated. Then he would not have been able to use her suffering as a reason/ excuse for what he did.
With legalised assisted dying they could have gone through the correct channels.

When you take an animal to a vet to be put out of its misery the vet doesn't slit it's fucking throat. That was not euthanasia.

To me, assisted suicide will require the person wishing to die seeing two separate councillors to make their case clear and that it is of their own free will.

Then one or two doctors to ensure there is absolutely no alternative.

Then, it would be in a hospital like the one in Switzerland, where everything is relaxed and calm. The person takes the medication and passes away peacefully

*slit

There's no evidence she didn't.

Perhaps but knowing how good the UK is at regulation, i would be concerned that AS would be used to save money/reduce waiting lists instead - after all, we have a Govt where dying (needlessly) waiting for an Ambulance is all ok.

Its a slippery slope in the hands of the unscrupulous.

Yes but you can’t prove a negative. these men who’ve killed their partners and claimed it was a sex act gone wrong - there’s no evidence those women DIDN’T want a near death sexual experience either but that’s not how trials are run.

Yes there's something about this case that doesn't sit right for me. I was watching it on the news yesterday with my mum and we both sat there thinking the same. I certainly sympathise with the AS cause and of course every case is different but the manner of death in this instance was so brutal it just doesn't add up for me.

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet if he was found not guilty of murder there won't have been enough evidence to prove it was murder.

As a PP said, if assisted suicide was legalised he wouldn't have been able to use this defence.

He also attempted to kill himself so whatever happened he's right - nobody should have to go through what he has.

Whilst I agree cutting someone’s throat is an extreme act, it is a very quick death. Overdose on the other hand is not guaranteed to be successful in terms of ending someone’s life and perhaps more importantly, overdose can be a horrendous, painful and long drawn out death, especially when oral medications are used. Also, If she was on morphine for pain for example, it would be difficult to manage her pain AND stockpile a fatal dose as these meds are closely monitored.

something like paracetamol is easy to stockpile but death through a paracetamol overdose is horrible - liver failure followed by multi organ failure , vomiting, diarrhoea and a lot of confusion/ involuntary movement etc in the person (hepatic encephalopathy) and it can take days for the person to die.

IMHO, anything which keeps AS on the radar is a good thing as I am pro-choice WRT this. As PPs have said, we are not party to all the facts/evidence so must trust the jury and judge made the right call. I wonder if people’s thoughts would be the same if it had been the wife euthanising her husband? Given she was terminally ill, why would he need to kill her for nefarious reasons?

For those of you suggesting different methods that he could have chosen, maybe think about it a bit more.
When a carotid artery is cut, the sudden lack of blood to the brain would most certainly ensure that death is almost instant.
Overdosing is prolonged, can be very painful.
Sitting someone in a car and sticking a pipe on the exhaust so they die from the fumes is also very prolonged - the victim would slowly suffocate.

This was a woman who was terminally ill. She had very little time to live. If he’d just wanted her dead, he just had to wait his time.

That’s my concern too especially in mental health care. In countries where AS has been legalised suicidal intent morphs from a symptom of mental illness to be treated into a patients perfectly sane wishes that should be respected. You see an uptick in psychiatrists and psychologists pushing patients into AS and these patients going quietly to their deaths. I fear legal AS would leak over into apathetic emergency response for people attempting suicide. You also see in countries with legalised AS families of patients who are not mentally competent (esp acquired brain injury/stroke or old age/dementia/Alzheimer’s) pressuring the doctors to sign off on AS to save on care home fees from eating away at inheritance. There have been some very concerning cases in the courts where AS has been upheld even in very questionable circumstances.

This is a shocking story. If (and it's a big if) she had wanted him to end her suffering why did she not leave a suicide note? Why did she choose such a barbaric way to die?

The end of life team could have made her comfortable.

I simply don't believe his story and I don't think he should be speaking up about euthanasia.

She hadn't signed either of the notes.

It's surprising how many suicide pacts between couples end up with the man surving

But also. If assisted suicide was legal, people wouldn't be able to use it as an excuse for murder. So it's also a good example of why it's neccesary in that way I guess.

Tbh though I honestly couldn't think of any other way of doing it, she wouldn't be well enough to do alot of things and alot of things require resources or contacts that most people don't have.

I wouldn’t look too much into the jury’s decision. There have been women who’ve been raped, with horrific injuries, and men admitted it via text, and they’ve been found not guilty. The burden of proof is insanely high.

TRIGGER WARNING - story about a violent death.

my DH served in the infantry in Iraq and was in a roadside bomb. Thankfully he survived with minor injuries but his friend was semi-decapitated, his throat having effectively been split, and he said he took absolutely ages to actually die and it looked extremely painful. I mean maybe it just felt long because what an awful thing to go through, but I don’t believe it’s as instant and painless as people claim.

We watched it on the news last night.
When he said 'she'd be fuming now if she were here'...It felt off. I said to DH, but she's not here is she and he is!
I had no idea then that he'd slit her throat 😕

The end of life team could have made her comfortable.

both my parents died from cancer. It was horrific. Honestly, if I could have ended their suffering earlier I would have done. Not like this story though.

For those who say she was dying anyway, why didn't he just bide his time - it might not have been about not having her in his life. I'm not saying that this is what it was in this case but some people have a desire to murder.

My Nan suffered, and eventually died, from cancer. Her end of life care was painless and comfortable for her (because she had an insane amount of morphine pumping through her system) but horrific for us to watch. It took 10 days for her to finally pass once she was given morphine and starved of nutrition. I can’t remember the term sorry.

I don’t think my grandad slitting her throat would have been better. It was just awful for us, the waiting, oh the agonising waiting! But no doubt she wouldn’t have felt anything - or at least her wonderful nurses and doctors reassured us she would feel nothing. The only thing was she was a very proud, immaculately turned out woman and appearances mattered to her. She’d have been mortified if she knew what she was going through in those last 10 days.

Agreed that he's not the person to lead a public conversation about assisted death.

I've never forgotten Justice Haddon-Cave's compassionate sentencing remarks from 2015: R. v Anthony Mann. There's a vivid description of Janet Mann's multiple illnesses and how she'd frequently declared that she didn't want to live.

1. This is an exceptionally sad and tragic case.
2. On 20th June 2014, the Defendant, Mr Anthony Mann (aged 78) stabbed his wife, Janet Mann (also aged 78), in the heart and killed her. They had been happily married 57 years and were a devoted and loving couple. Mrs Mann, had been suffering for several years with complex medical problems and increasing dementia. Mr Mann had been her constant and devoted carer. Her condition had considerably worsened in the previous days and weeks. She did not want to return to hospital or to suffer any more. He was under intolerable strain at the time and acted under impulse. He called the emergency services and admitted what he had done.

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/r-v-mann-sentencing-remarks-130415.pdf

I do not believe this was a suicide pact.
He murdered her.