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Fathers4justice latest stunt

36 replies

pupuce · 19/11/2004 13:19

Now that is amusing ... well maybe not for her !

OP posts:
Caligula · 19/11/2004 13:21

Must admit, hate them normally, but laughed my head off when I heard!

MummyToSteven · 19/11/2004 13:32

ditto, Caligula!!! was I imaginging it or did they manage to get the big one rollercoaster temporarily closed down in Blackpool a few months ago???

MrsDoolittle · 19/11/2004 13:43

This makes me laugh. Atleast it's harmless.

secur · 19/11/2004 13:46

Message withdrawn

Caligula · 19/11/2004 13:47

Something to do with the presence of the hapless Mrs Hodge, I think!

MummyToSteven · 19/11/2004 13:48

as distinct from Margaret Hodge in her past jobs, secur

secur · 19/11/2004 13:50

Message withdrawn

JanH · 19/11/2004 13:51

"It is believed a third man tried to join Mr Stanesby and Mr Hatch on stage, but was wrestled to the floor by lawyers sitting in the front row."

I bet that was worth seeing!

merlot · 19/11/2004 14:01

yes, diminishes the debate and all that.... but you've got to admit that it raises the profile of the debate.

wobblyknicks · 19/11/2004 23:23

What really got me was watching the news reporting about this and the words used were that the men involved were 'campaigning for more automatic access rights'. I don't know about you, but that immediately rang huge alarm bells in my head. The common defence they seem to hide behind is that even if they are given access rights, the mothers stop them seeing the kids. now if this is true, then more automatic rights wouldn't help as the mother would still defy them. The only way it could help them is if a court has seen fit to deny them extra rights because of their behaviour - so having extra automatic rights might get them past that obstacle. Which is very disturbing - it gives me even more suspicion that these blokes are using a good cause to campaign for rights that they personally shouldn't be given.

Anyone else see it that way?

merlot · 19/11/2004 23:29

yes, iswym - the thought of that is disturbing . Wonder if there are any legal eagles out there that could give their view on this?

eemie · 20/11/2004 00:08

Well if a strange man handcuffed himself to me in a meeting I would feel threatened, intruded on and humiliated. She is entitled to do her job without being physically molested. The police shouldn't have to be involved to ensure her safety or her liberty.

Many of us work in situations where clients or members of the public can become intimidating, intrusive or aggressive. What if a father did this to a teacher at a parents' evening or a social worker at a contact visit? Would that be a sniggering matter?

JanH · 20/11/2004 11:10

eemie, I think we all agree with you, and most/all of us have been unimpressed with their usual stunts - it's only because it's la Hodge, who is seriously unpopular here, that the childish sniggers arise.

I'm sorry, I know they are dodgy people and I would hate to be accosted like that, but that did make me smile. ()

SofiaAmes · 20/11/2004 22:27

Not ALL of us. I think fathers for justice are the bees knees and am really impressed with their cleverness at getting publicity for their cause. I also believe in their cause. And I think the m.hodge stunt is really great because she really is the most offensive politician I've come across yet.

Gobbledigook · 20/11/2004 22:31

SA - I have a quiet respect for them too. You don't get heard these days by going through the 'official channels' so at least they are raising their profile.

JanH · 20/11/2004 23:03

OK, SA, most of us!

Of course there are fantastic fathers who are hindered by stroppy spiteful mothers, as I know you know, but as wobblyknicks said, there are also some very dodgy fathers who have been rightly prevented from having anything except restricted access to their children.

A lot of what fathers4justice have done is obstructive and doesn't do their cause any good, unfortunately, but this stunt is better than most.

clare1980 · 20/11/2004 23:17

i have a close friend who has had no contact with his 3 children for almost 2 years after his wife went off with another man, my friend was a very good father and would do anything for his children. his ex wife has ruined his life and he has been near suicidal on occasions and fathers4justice has given him a purpose to live,and hope that maybe he will be able to see his children soon. i agree that not all fathers deserve the right to see their children but i support the ones who do

SofiaAmes · 20/11/2004 23:33

Fathers for justice are fighting for equality. They want to be considered a good parent first and let it be shown if they are not a good parent. Unfortunately, that is not the norm in this country. A father is automatically considered not as good a parent as a mother before looking at the individuals.

JanH · 20/11/2004 23:36

Um - I don't think that's entirely true, SA - look at Twinkie's experience, for one. Having left "the marital home", because she just couldn't stay any longer, she had a long and complicated legal journey before she was finally awarded residency. The individuals were looked at very closely.

Caligula · 20/11/2004 23:54

I think that is outdated SA. That certainly was the case 20 years ago, but most custody cases now are decided on the basis of who does the most parenting. That's obviously not always the case, but in general it is. And in the majority of cases, it is mothers who do the majority of childcare. It is mothers who take jobs below their skill and experience levels, put their careers on hold, reduce their hours, take pay cuts etc., and make the sorts of sacrifices most fathers simply aren't prepared to make (or it doesn't even cross their minds to make) in order to benefit their children.

Of course there are exceptions, but the exceptions are always notable precisely because they are exceptions. That's why in the main, mothers are still awarded care and control more often than fathers.

SofiaAmes · 21/11/2004 02:24

My dh's lawyer told him not to bother even trying to get custody of his children because it was very unlikely that he would get it. That was only a few years ago. Things are no different than they were 20 years ago. And just because someone stays at home more with the kids, doesn't mean that they are a better parent. And I think it's offensive to say that most fathers don't make sacrifices for their chidlren. Just because my husband works every day, doesn't mean he hasn't made sacrifices every minute of every hour for his chidlren. And just because my father didn't handle the bulk of the childcare issues in my family doesn' t mean that he didn't make sacrifices for his children and wasn't equally as important a parent to me as my mother.
In any case, a decision that is made when a couple is together such as one parent staying at home and the other earning the money, should not have to continue once they are no longer a couple.
Shared custody is the norm in the usa and it works perfectly well (though obviously not as well as when the parents are still together in a happy relationship).
I knew I should have stayed away from this thread.

clairabelle · 21/11/2004 05:38

Have to say I think being handcuffed to a stranger like this must have been very frightening for her regardless of how offensive her comments may be and don't really see how stunts like this help their cause at all

SofiaAmes · 21/11/2004 09:51

Not as frightening as having your children stolen from you, and when the professionals who instigated that theft are discredited, having the minister in charge of the whole thing not order an independent inquiry so you can get your children back. Or what about calling one of the children (now grown up) who was abused under your watch (in islington) names for ojecting to your appointment...must have been frightening for that child to be abused and not have the person in charge do anything about it and continue ignorance 20+(?) years later. The woman deserves all she got. If she actually bothered to listen and care in the ways that she is supposed to as an elected official then he wouldn't have had to resort to more extreme measures.

(I too tried to write her and got absolutely no response. Called her office, spoke to her assistant for a very long time and he said that they don't comunicate by email and that letters had to be sent the old fashioned way. ...so much for being in touch with the modern world and the needs of your constiuents.)

wobblyknicks · 21/11/2004 10:35

But SA, you've hit the nail on the head saying 'elected official'. Whether you like what she does or not, she has been put in office by 'the common man' and can be 'fired', forced to resign or voted out, by society. Those should be the only 'punishments' for doing her job badly - not having some idiot rush up and chain himself to her. Imagine what things would be like if everyone could do that to someone they felt had done a bad job.

F4J may be fighting for equality but equality doesn't exist for either side and, to be frank, will never exist because men and women, fathers and mothers will always be different. For a start, if a single father brings up a child its seen as a major achievement and a great sacrifice whereas if a mother brings up a child most people see it as completely normal and nothing special - is that equality??

Regardless of how things have been in the past, these days the courts do give fathers quite a high standing as far as children are concerned. When I left my ex, just over a year ago, the solicitor gave me a (verbal) list of warnings/things not to do just in case UH tried to get custody and could use something against me, when it was his fault I had to leave - which hardly fits the idea of mothers having automatic preference.

Some fathers should have more access to their kids and bringing that higher in people's minds must be a good thing. But there are socially acceptable ways and unacceptable ones. IMO children starving to death in Africa is an equally, if not more important cause but you don't see people going out and chaning themselves to ministers in support of it. They fundraise/produce records etc etc instead. Some people think its tasteless but at least its harmless!!!

Also, this wasn't a one-off revenge thing at the minister, this was, in their own words, the start of 'a Christmas of Chaos' - so god knows what they've got planned to come!!!

IMO, if they aren't utter idiots then they're giving a lot of people a bad opinion of them and their cause unnecessarily. If they are complete @rseholes then its probably a good thing that they don't have more influence on their kids, and encouraging a next generation of tossers.

Caligula · 21/11/2004 10:54

I?m sorry if you think it?s offensive to state simple facts, SA, but it is simply fact that women make financial and status sacrifices which men don't for their children. I?m sure your DH (and many other fathers) make sacrifices as well, but that doesn?t actually change the statistics - most women still do the bulk of childcare, still take pay cuts, still take career breaks, still take jobs below their skill level, still do all the crappy donkeywork of being a parent and courts feel that that does make them more suitable parents for children to live with. And of course an arrangement can change, but are you saying that on divorce, most fathers are suddenly prepared to do what many mothers already do? Because the statistics just don't back you up.

I don't know what point you are making with the "just because someone stays at home with the kids doesn't make them a better parent" comment. Courts don't work like that, they are not saying that someone who gets care and control is a better parent, they're not making a moral judgement, they're making a practical one - they're saying this parent is a more suitable person to have care and control, not a morally better person. They decide who is practically more likely to give the children a stable home, and in most cases, they come down on the side of the person who knows the children better and has looked after them more, which in most cases is the mother. And most fathers accept this because they're not mad control freaks; they actually put the needs of their children first, because they are good fathers. Most of the divorced good fathers I know acknowledge that their children?s mother was the best person to have care and control of their children, because they didn?t want it (or even 50 50 ? too much like hard work)! I don't know what the definition of a good parent is, but one who puts their children?s needs before their own is a start. I don't see F4J talking very much about that. Your DH?s situation is obviously one of the exceptions, but I think we all know the old thing of hard cases making bad law.

As for the 50 50 being a norm in the USA which you say works ?perfectly well?, I?d genuinely be interested to know more about it and how it does work well in reality (who says so and how long has it been going ? what do the children say about it?), but Trick or Treat on Halloween works well there too, doesn?t mean it transfers well. That?s not a flippant remark, just an observation that what works well for one culture and one society might not work well for another because the other cultural and social variables which enable it to work aren?t present.

And sure, Margaret Hodge is ghastly, which is why so many of us smirked when we heard this story, but smirking isn't actually the same as saying it's justifiable. Bearing in mind that so many of the men who dress up and cavort around in Superhero costumes have later been revealed to have a history of violence and abuse, one can feel just a small bit sorry for Mrs H, even while having an evil chuckle about it. (OK, just a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny smidgeon of sympathy... somewhere... if I try hard enough, I know I'll find it...)