The children's database

[emmaagain]

Not feeling so splendid about the prospect of HM government having a new massive database containing our children's names, DoB, address, school, GP, any contact with HVs or social services, inside leg measurements, favourite snacks...?

THere's a petition here

petitions.pm.gov.uk/Databases/

Spread the word. It'd be great if this one snowballed into being an enormous message to the politicos :-)

Speaking from my experience, Local authorities do already hold a database of every child who attends school in that area, as well as every child that has been referred to them by other agencies.
At present social services do have to sift through countless referrals of a trivial nature, some from ex partners, some from estranged family, some from well meaning teachers who have different values to the family and some from Health professionals who have little idea about what they should leave to the parents.

Being able to access a national database of every child would mostly be of use to be able to track children moving round the country. For the vast majority of children, it's irrelevant because they will live in the same house or area and attend the same primary school and then attend the same secondary school until they leave.

I haven't seen the proposals that say that 2 flags raised on a child will mean a case conference because I can see BASW arguing against that one, but also referrals are treated differently according to what information is given now and I would expect that to continue.

God, no-one who knows more than the average HV about eating and feeding (so that's most of mumsnet) will ever get through their child's childhood again without several case conferences. Which of course, there will be no extra funding for.

It's all very well having a dbase, but they are not going to pour extra resources in to deal with the flag-ups of the dbase are they? So case conferences are going to have to become far more perfunctory as there are going to have to be many, many more of them.

This kind of National Busybodyness makes me seethe,but then I nearly kicked off at a New York airport a couple of weeks ago because they took two fingerprints. Fingerprints are for criminals NOT shoppers!

My local authority clearly doesn't. Or, if they do, don't bother to look at it - every year they are surprised by the number of children in my town who need school places and leave around 90 with no local school.

If they can't even count, what hope is there that such a database will be used correctly and efficiently?

No Sugarfree, in Germany they now use fingerprints as a way of shopping - each shopper can give their fingerprint and then it gets charged ot their account or something. There was a report on PM the other day and I was only half paying attention. So that's a joy to come!

Edam - children are added once they start school, so during the applications procedure they wouldn't know how many children were going to require a place in any given year.

Oh that's good, LittleBella. So in Germany, anyone who takes a photocopy of your fingerprint (cos lets face it, your fingerprints are REALLY hard to get copies of... not) can clear out your bank account in an afternoon?!!

I hate the automatic complacency that biometrics is "secure" that seems inherent in our society at the moment

So you're signing a petition based on one person's interpretation of an allegedly planned database of which there is no supporting link to? Do you even know more about this than what the petition creator wrote?

agree with edam, nightshade
we and our children dont need this further invasion of privacy

and i dont like this fingerprint shopper idea at all, i heard the report on this last week..

crikey, it's hard enough being a prole...leave us some dignity and privacy please...

No I'm signing a database because I think if it's not good enough for MP's children, it's not good enough for mine.

I think that's a good enough reason, frankly.

RD - I don't know if it's photocopied, it might have to be the real ones. (I wasn't listening properly, was sorting out dinner!)

er... is that addressed to me SpacePuppy?

This story has been around for so long, I didn't even bother to do any links. But a 10 second google turns up

oh no it's the daily mail

the times talking about the database itself and the hordes of people who'll have access

even grauniad comment seems to be anti

ooh look, this is just two days ago, the story has been rejuvenated in the light of recent government failure to look after our information

This threat hanging over us has been part of my consciousness for so long now that it didn't even occur to me that anyone might require linkage. My bad. I hope the prevalence of Times articles in my linkage doesn't offend anyone's political sensibilities...

Little Bella: no the issue is that even very sophisticated finger print locks/readers can be fooled by some very basic hacks, like lifting someone's fingerprint then using a photocopy or a gummy mold fingerprint to "mimic" the other person's finger. It's worth going to the link I posted and particularly viewing the video on it which shows how quickly a fingerprint lock can be opened.

Ben Goldacre in the Guardian this weekend (Bad Science) explained quite how easy it is to fake a fingerprint. All you need is say, a glass that someone has handled, some superglue and some polymer clay (sold in a craft shop near you).

Of course, fingerprint recognition will be great for the banks and the govt. as it will be down to us to prove it ain't our print. And we won't be able to...

Read a quote yesterday (think in the Grauniad) saying that fingerprint recognition technology is really easy to fool, as you are basically leaving your PIN on a post-it-note every time you touch anything.

I am really strongly against the idea of this child database. I don't really want 350,000 people authorised to see detailed information about my child, and the Govt have yet to assure me that the information will be secure anyway.

And of course it is a gross invasion of privacy and who knows how it could end up being used?

Maybe they should start using toe-prints - wouldn't be so easy to get hold of them!

LOL imagine the waft of feet in shops every time someone went to pay for something!

Agree wholeheartedly with LittleBella: if it's not secure enough for public servants' children, then why would it be secure enough for mine.

In our organisation anyone who has access to a database with the details of an under-16 yo on it has to have enhanced CRB disclosure. I wonder if this permeates an entire system?

Bet it doesn't. And with 350 000 people having legitamite access, I reckon there could be a few disgruntled ex's tracking ex-partners through their children.

well i am in hiding from my Ex and if he ever gained access to it then could possibly trace me through my children.

Because i know that mistakes happen my children are registered for EVERYTHIGN at my parents adress.

BLU - "In our organisation anyone who has access to a database with the details of an under-16 yo on it has to have enhanced CRB disclosure." ... NOT WORTH THE PAPER THEY'RE WRITTEN ON.
CRB disclosure only show what people have been prosecuted for.
My Grandsons parents were arrested, taken to court and had their child removed - but because they were taken to court by the Social Services and not by the police - THEY DO NOT HAVE A RECORD. My Grandson was beaten up at 5 months old (in the care of his parents), he had a chest fractue, pretrichial hemorrhaging (can't spell it) all over one side of his face, a bruise the shape of an adults hand on the side of his face/head, bruising and bleeding to his mouth, fingertip sized bruises and had been starved. Both parents were told the baby would never be returned to them and that any other children they had would be taken away at birth.
Both his parents would pass an enhanced CRB disclosure - BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER PROSECUTED!!! And in addition, it they move away from the town they live in, there is currently no way to know what they/he did to the baby. They could move and have another child and no-one would be able to do a thing (and that comes from a solicitor, Barrister and the social workers).
I understand people concerns re; this database, but from personal experience - I think it's about time this existed

Joash that is awful. i hope your grandson is safe and well now.

the reason they have never been convicted is that SS took them to court to obtain an emergancy care order allowing them to remove the child. they have not been taken to court for the assualt of their child and so it is not a conviction.

And you are right. if they move towns then unless they are bought to the attention of Social services they would be able to continue to have children and no one would know and be able to moniter them.

the system is flawed, there can be no doubt but i do worry about having too much information all in one place.

mamazon - grandson is safe and well now, he came to us once released from hospital and has been with us ever since (he's five in three weeks).

I do know and understand the reason they have never been convicted -what I am trying to saying is that there must be numerous people who similar situations, who are able to get jobs where they would have access to information regarding children.

Additionally, I have also recently been made aware that my youngest sister has actually joined the police force - this is a young woman who has some serious mental health issues, yet has managed to stay out of the 'system'. Yet she would, presumably, have access to the database too.

Oh this is sooooo needed - for adults too. It would massively facilitate partnership working and smooth processes for claiming benefits, and using services such as benefits related to health, etc. I wish, wish wish this had been in place for years.

Of course security of the system is vital but with consent I think it is invaluable to many of us.