Flexi-workers under fir in The Times

[LaDiDaDi]

I wondered what mumsnetters views are on this article.

I found it very one sided and very annoyed by Minnette Marvin who is lucky enough to be able to work freelance and therefore by her owqn admission flexibly. She makes no mention of the benefits of flexible working to employers, such as employee loyalty and increased staff retention, nor does she suggest any alternatives other than working full-time and becoming a man!

yes, me too NKF I used to always work through August and Christmas and New Year pre children
no big deal though is it?
I agree with you about elderly care, that really is an invisible task

Agree with you about elderly care.

I think, as I said above, that organisations should look at how their staff are being deployed, and recruit and plan accordingly. It involves looking at things differently.

What is wrong is when colleagues are expected to take up the slack, with no reward or thanks. (Working August and Christmas is no big deal but I suspect it can feel a bit thankless.)

Sometimes it was a big deal because there were few people in the office and the work load was high during some of the holidays. Also, I was living with a teacher at one point so we couldn't go on holiday together. We didn't take holidays together for years. Going on holiday with your partner would probably be seen as a hobby compared to looking after a baby. Maybe it is.

I did the work and then, in a fit of irritation, I pointed it out to my boss that once again I was the only senior member of staff working over Easter. It didn't change anything but at least someone noticed.

xenia "She leaves at 5 because she's married a sexist man who thinks women should be responsible for children or because she had such a poorly paid job her husband earns more so hers comes second or because she can't afford to pay anyone else to look after it until 6.30 or 7.! slightly simplistic but in essence so true. It drives me up the wall that the one day a week I work late anyone who bumps into me in the office says - in what they think is a understanding way - shouldn't you be gone by now? don't you have to get back to the children? As for when I volunteered to fly to Africa at short notice due to a huge crisis - well, my boss cearly thought I'd lost the plot. I wonder how often dh has had any of this stuff said to him. he's not sexist but the world in which we operate is still built around this assumption that childcare is primarily a feminine thing. in his work place it's reflected by pretending children don;t exist (he works in a male do,inated environment). In my work place it's reflected by assuming I need to leave at 5/ can't travelat short notice

Not being able to go on holiday with your partner is unfair. What did you do?

yes, I can see that would be irritating.
it is all about give and take, good manners, appreciation and seeing yourself as part of a community maybe.
I don't think it is too much to ask to look after each other and take up some slack so that children are cared for, that their mum gets to see them in the nativity play.
and it isn't too much to ask for the paretns to be appreciative.
but I think where society starts to crumble away is when we look at other people having children and say oh it's just a lifestyle choice.
I mean we are all people
we have really messed up our society, locked away from each other in our little boxes.
it makes us all unhappy, imo

We only ever went away for Bank Holiday weekends.

It's history now and I did well at that company and so have nothing to complain about. But I'm willing to bet that not one of my colleagues knew the slack I took up.

My dh is a fab dad and gives ds his bath every evening. But I have to admit, if I don't spend an hour or so with ds in the evening, i miss him, and I feel guilty. That's why I leave at 5.

Very unpc to say so, but I'm biologically driven to want to leave at 5. Is it OK for an organisation to support that? Or to assume that?

Which is why, now I'm a mother trying to fit in work and children (and I've worked every sort of work arrangement imaginable)that I try to retain some sensitivity to my colleagues's lives and an understanding that mine impacts on them.

I think there's a difference between what one can assume an organisation should do and getting on with colleagues. For example, where I worked, overtime was only ever done by non mothers. Okay so they got paid for it but they also cancelled dates with friends and didn't make it to the gym and got home late. You can say those things are trivial compared with a baby's needs and you'd be right I guess. But having been the childless person who sat alone in the office night after night, I'd be sensitive to their wish for a work/life balance as well and try to take up slack in other ways.

Biologically driven... mmmm Organisations have to comply with the law, that's all, They don't have to decide what is morally right. I have worked late in London before now to miss bed time because I just didn't want the hassle of 3 tired under 5s and could get home at 7.30 and their father had put them to bed. I certainly wouldn't have wanted that every night but some nights it was a relief. Sensible employers who want to keep keen staff with do what is needed to keep them all happy and if it's someone they're happy to lose then they won't make the same efforts.

On the flight to Africa etc thing I don't think I ever suffered that reverse sexism - you should be home by now because you're a mother but I've known fathers with wives in similar jobs to them and to me who do have a commitment to collect from nursery either every day or on certain days although not as commonly as women. Often couples share - so man might go in to work late and do the morning drop off or waiting for the nanny to arrive and woman leaves early. The better deal is not to have the rush at the end of the day in most jobs so where possible get the husband (or nanny) to do after nursery collection or being in time of the nanny's going home time.

Many women seem to want to pick and mix between wanting equality in the workplace but wanting special treatment at the same time. Flexi works well provided that everyone has it. Otherwise resentment understandably builds up.

I think the governant should encourage companies to employ more part time workers. A lot of retired people or disabled people are very talented, but are not physically fit enough to cope with a full time post.

A shift to more part time working would be good for the country, not just mums. However employers should be encouraged to offer part time working by tax breaks rather than forced.

We thought that would happen in the 70s. Wilson talked about the White Heat of Technology and how computers would mean we'd all be lounging around just working 4 hours a day. yet in fact the British seem to want to work longer hours than the rest of Europe. All studies show people like to keep their over time. It's not the case most people want shorter hours by any means. Indeed some people want less time with chidlren and more in the relatively relaxing office.

Reallytired - you've hit the nail on the head with the comment that some women want equality when it suits but also special consideration. The only way to true equality is for both parents to be treated as adults who have responsibility for their child (or responsibility to delegate that care when they want to). This shouldn't be an issue about women, it's about PEOPLE. And regards flexible working, I agree that all people, partnered, single whatever should have an equal right to request flexi working if they want to.

i work to rule - there is just no point in giving any company more of my time than is necessary - if i work a weekend - i want it back - if i work an eening - i want it back. its not the fault of the women who talk advantage of a flexitime system - its the fault of the piss poor middle managers who often cant manage their own farts never mind job distribution between staff.

I have read the OP and then dipped in and out of the thread, but I am going to sit firmly onthe fence here

I have 2 kids, I am the main bredwinner and last year when lookin for a new job flexibility was important. However I DON'T TAKE THE PISS!!

That I think is the issue, I joined a company where in our region (I cannot speak for anywhere else than East Anglia and Essex) all the main Business Directors are women who work flexitime. And guess what everyone picks up each others slack!

This term I have had 'time off for dependants' as DD2 had a broken arm = 2 times in hospital and she has just had Slapped Cheek. Now Xenia DD did as much as me, but the hospital bit - well I couldn't leave (OK I went to work for an hour each day!!) And typically she got siick the day DH left to go away for 2 months!!

However When I am there I work harder than enyone, I organise my own workload, I pick up everyone else slack if they are off and they do the same to me - IT IS CALLED TEAMWORK. The people without kids aren't shat upon, the blokes whos kids get sick also leave if needs be (one poor soul has a sick wofe and small baby, so he has to look after both) But we ALL muck in.

THAT is when flexitime works, and guess what those Business Directors have put an average of 10 years into the company, made the company shed loads of money (We are all sales people) and paid for themselves many many times over. I am not leaving ANYTIME soon (which is a massive benefit of flexi hours) and if I did it would cost the company ££££ to replace me.

I am a MASSIVE fan of flexible workin and as a recruitment consultant I spend every day TELLING people to be more flexible, they attract the BEST people, have lower recruitment costs!!, retain staff and generally the company gets a good reputation and goes on to attract even better staff.

There are far far more beneifits to flexible working and the poor deluded cow who wrote the oiriginal peice needs to go get a porper job, in the REAL world

I think that what counts is not how long your bum is on the seat, but how well the job gets done. If I can get my job done from home, while looking after DCs or whilst abseiling down a cliff for that matter, it shouldn't make the blindest bit of difference to anyone. And I am responsible enough to ensure that it does get done.

If I am not doing so and someone else ends up shouldering my responsibilities clearly there are issues to address.

crunchie - what you describe is a win win situation for everyone - I don't think anyone would dispute that flexible working is fine in a case like this. The problem lies where it's win for the employee but lose for employer/client/colleagues.

Employers will bend over backwards for you if you're the best in the company. That's how to get flexitime really where the employer can't afford to lose you. Then if you bring in more revenue than anyone so what.

There was a lawyer hired in Spain or Italy. He said it takes me ages to wake up in the morning, at least 2 hours. I'll take the job if I never have to be in before 11. He was hired because he was brilliant.

Flexi working is part of a package rather like private health insurance, a pension or possibly a car. It is a perk and is earnt. It shouldn't be expected just because you are a Mum.

My employer can't offer much money so they offer me nice hours instead.

Amusingly I was in a meeting with men this morning all talking about flexiworking. Given their age I doubt any had children but they all wanted to work from home or work shorter hours and were talking about competitors who offer that and how some of them wished their employer would.

Completely agree with Xenia, as long as you are doing a brilliant job your employer won't care what hours you work.

My partner never stays in the office if he has something better to do - see his children, go flying, see a friend, spend the morning in bed with me . And he gets maximum bonus and pay rises every year...

One more anecdote. I remember having a conversation with a woman who worked three days a week after having a baby. She said "I used to be really into my job and after having children, it's become less of a priority." Then, less than half an hour later, she said, "I really resent that my colleagues think I'm less keen on my job now that I have children and work three days a week. And she didn't seem to understand her own contradictions.

Hmmm Anna, not QUITE like that for some of us!! Not all jobs can let you work whatever hours you want! Can't imagine my sister (a hospital doctor) just walking out on a patient because she 'has something better to do!' But well done you for bagging a husband who can provide such a lovely lifestyle!