"The Trouble is the West"

[Monkeytrousers]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali on Islam, immigration, civil liberties, and the fate of the West.link

Interesting article. But she spends most of the interview talking about the dangers of Islam and raving about the States. The trouble with the West, she is saying, is that we are too complacent, expecting if we respect others they will respect us, too full of white guilt and not coming down on Islamic fundamentalists hard enough. Not exactly what I expected from the tagline.

I don't know whether she is right or wrong and don't feel experience enough to comment. I think her comments are interesting. Wonder what some Muslim posters on MN will think though.

I think she is far too harsh. I see her point on the China dont burnt he American flag etc and Russia dont, but both those countries are a might to be reckoned with whereas smaller Muslim nations such a Pakistan are not.

I think she is too harsh on the Muslim populace as well and take severe offence (as a not particularly practicing Muslim) to the factthatshe believes Islam needs to be defeated. Yes, Islam is submission to Allah, Jihad comes from a very different angle and is about a Muslim homeland being invaded and Muslims defending that homeland.

People like this lady do not really help everyday Muslims who just wantt o get on with their lives.

I think she's an interesting voice with a certain amount of moral authority behind her due to her experience. I haven't read her book yet, though, only articles about her.

She has a unique authority I think - having suffered so much, including circumsision.

I agree it is strong, but this is a woman who is receiving death threats, who's friend was brutally killed becasue he made a film about domestic violence among Islamic communities.

Most of the refugees in Europe are female Muslim's fleeing domestic violence and slavery. This is an issue that many seem scared to take on for fear of being labelled anti-Islamic or racist, which is political correctlness gone mad - and I never thought I would ever be using that phrase in my life.

Just to say tho that female circumcision is to do with her cultural background not religion.

Also it is alot to do with separating extremism from day to day Muslims who just observe the Koran, like my graandparents who pray and strive to just be good people. We never hear about these people. I think it is wrong (for want of a better word) to be completely anti anything, as being coompletely anti allows very little room for taking circumstances into account.

Maybe so, but surely the most helpful way to interact with her criticism is to address it? It doesn't really help that she's in fear for her life and with good reason.

She's either dismissed as a rabble-rouser or threatened with death. I'd like to see a reasoned response to her work, not just a blanket dismissal.

I've no doubt that there are many, many sensible muslims who would just like to get on with their lives in peace - I know quite a few myself. But the issues that Ayaan Hirsi Ali raises are real issues.

Yes, but also the most suitable way to deal with the Islamist (fundamentalist etc) attitude is not to defeat Islam. How can it be acceptable to try to defeat someones belief system.

The worlds view of Islam is skewed to say the least no thanks to the people who do chose to take militant action, but people like this do not help either. I would like to see people taalking about Sufi Muslims for once and see what it really is all about.

Yes, she has been through a lot, but most a culturally related and not religiously altho many people will claim religion. She could have chosen to embrace her religion to help her through it, but she chose to become atheist, which is her choice, my own father has denounced Islam, yet he still acts quite Islamically because it isnt about religion in mosts instances but about culture.

I think she means to defeat it in its present state, just as the catholic church was during the reformation.

And while I know that the standard defense of female circumsition is to say it is cultural, and it is in part, but it also is a fact that that cultural rite is very prevalent within those who practise Islam. The Islamic link must be explored if this issue is to be understood better.

The feeling that it is wrong to be completley anti anything is precisely that which she says is being exploited by extremists. Like SueBarooo says, these are very real issues and they should be addressed with the issue of racism moot.

For those extremists, apostates must be killed, non-believers too. All must submit to the will of god. That is not a culture that you can tolerate, is it?

No that isnt but that is not Islam either.

It isn't part of Islam that apostates should be killed? I thought it was, but it was only for places in which Sharia law was in place?

I was referring to the extremists referred to by Monkeytrousers. Extremism in relation to anything is considered Haram in Islam.

I should say I am no expert as I am not practicing but i know that extremism is considered wrong in Islam.

Just skimmed read the article - but have heard about her. at her comments, but she is who she is because of her life experiences and she has interpreted Islam according to that.

For calrification Islam in NOT a political movement it is a religion of peace and there are some sick minded people out there who have interpreted in a fantical way and it's these people who are reported on most of the time. Just to emphasise the point that majority of Mulims are peaceful people and would never be involved in any extreme activites.

my dad [a priest] has a book of poetry but A Sufi Muslim and it sounds very interesting. I'll have to read it.

Sufism (altho I dont know loads about it) is great, it has not one ounce of politics in it.

It's more spirtiual and medidation orientated.

they actually have a monastery in Istanbul, i am defo visiting when i am there next - sorry i digress

will read the book!

Mixedmama, that is Islam in many Ismanic states and I think all Islamic states are fundamentaist ones. And Islamic states don't allow multiculturalism; there are people of other cultures and religions there, but they are marginal.

The worry Hirsi Ali has is that soon, due to the control of women within Islam, and therefore their fertility, very soon demographics will change withim European counties so that people of the Muslim faith will be the majority. This she argues is a political act.

After Muslims reach majority status they can start (in counties that have no seperation between church and state especially, like the UK) lobbying for things such as Sharia law. She is worried that a new Islamist facism will rise, and in turn a new Western facism - thsi is what she is trying to stop by wanting the issue addressed now, before the boys get too hot under the collar and spoil for a fight.

She talks about non pious Muslims, but as we see in current Islamist states, once a state becomes Islamist, fundameantalism rules, teh division between church and state collapses and any (critical) debate is seen as apostatism - leading to brain drain.

It is so tricky, as this debate would so easliy be hijaced by bigots, but that is no reason to have it.

I know that the majority of Muslims are people just like anyone else Armani, they love their families, want to put food on teh table, etc. But these extremists recruit from the young male demographic specifically becasue they are young adn impressionable. It doesn't take all moderate Muslim's to affect a coup in Iran and install a fundamentalist regime. This is not a debaet about moderate Muslims, but ones who do use Ismal to political ends to control people and populace.

I think Hirsi Ali is an incredibly courageous woman, but I think it's a HUGE leap - in fact, several huge leaps - to talk about Western European societies becoming not only majority Muslim, but also fundamentalist, misogynistic Sharia states. I completely accept that societies like Saudi Arabia and Iran are foully misogynistic - but then they are also foul in many other aspects as well (basic human rights being the big one). The state of these aocieties isn't simply to do with them being Islamic.

I really find it hard to believe that centuries of broadly Western European traditions (liberalism, secularism, individualism, Christianity) could be overturned so easily - I just don't think that European culture would be so easily toppled.

'The power-hungry, expansionist side of Islam' - who is she talking about? I'm not happy about states like Iran and Pakistan having the bomb, but I don't see them invading anybody. If anything, they are more at risk of being invaded by 'us', aren't they?

Does she really believe that the American flag is only ever burned in Islamic states?

I think she has a hugely inflated view of the potency of radical Islam - probably reasonably so, given her personal history.

Her description of Muslim immigrants - word, send money back to the family, aim to return 'home' at some point - could describe first-generation immigrants throughout recent history. Nothing specifically Islamic about that pattern. Similarly, there's an established pattern of second-generation immigrants becoming politicized and expressing discontent at their second-class citizen status. A generation later, broadly speaking, their concerns have been addressed and they become more assimilated.

Sorry about these episodic posts. I think I have finished now.

I hope you are right PW, but western civilisation is always in a state of flux - and just look at how quickly the infastructure broke down in Yugoslavia - it doesn't take much.

Western democracies aren't being invaded forcibly, this is her point; it's a very subtle game - if she is right - that is being played, and at the centre of it is the exploitaion of women, but no one wants to speak up for them as they don't wnat to be labelled facist. This is the issue for me; it is a feminist issue.

Politican's don't want to adress it becasue it isn't politically expedient when also trying to promote tolerence. Bigots would hijack the debate, and then, well, things could get as divisive as Iraq with the Sunni/Shia divide (which is Muslim fighting Muslim) or Northern Ireland, for a more closer example.