If you want a referendum on the EU "treaty" (aka constitution) SIGN UP HERE

[eleusis]

www.iwantareferendum.com/index.aspx

We are one piddling little nation with an overinflated idea of our own power alone on the world stage. I'd much rather we aligned ourselves with the EU than with the US. I think that is the reality we have to face.

Whether you want to be a European state or an independant superpower isn't the point. Let's have a vote and find out what the people want rather than having athe government ram their choice down our throats because they deem us commoners too stupid to form a credible opinion.

I personally think Britain is in the perfect balance now. A member of the EU, but still with some independance. I think a lot of Europeans want this. I think the Dutch want to be Dutch first, European second, the French want to be French first and foremost, and so on... I do not believe the British economy will prosper by being ruled by Brussels. The constitution is a bad idea, and not just for Britain.

If we had a referendum on executions the people would vote overwhelmingly to reinstate it. This is why referendums are sometimes a very bad idea in a country with an agenda setting media appealing to the basest impulses in our population to serve the needs of their oligarchical masters.

I really think that most of the people who would vote against the treaty would do so because the tabloids have manipulated their xenophobia, not because they have seriously researched the treaty and weighed up its implications.

I don't think people would vote to reinstate the death penalty.

And I don't think you can accuse everyone of being a puppet to the media. And you certainly can't discard their vote on the basis that they are stupid and taking their news from the wrong source. Freedon of press and freedon to vote are very important. I can't even believe people are arguing against them.

Sadly, you're wrong-
"The death penalty is a considerably more divisive issue in Britain today than in other major countries in Western Europe or North America, a new Associated Press International Affairs poll conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs has revealed. The poll, conducted in the UK in February 2007, finds that half the British public (50%) say they favour the death penalty for people convicted of murder, while 42% are opposed. This suggests a weakening of British support for capital punishment in recent years, since polls in the past have tended to find a clear majority in favour of restoring the death penalty."

I don't believe people are too stupid to understand the issues involved, I think that mostly they are too busy with their lives to go beyond the headlines and I also think that most people haven't been empowered enough to understand when they are being cynically manipulated.

Eleusis - how can you argue that public as a whole is not the puppet of the media?

In 1992 Kinnock was expected to beat Major. however in the final days of the campaign the Sun launched some fierce attacks on him and his policies. Immediatly the polls changed. The Sun is widely regarded as responsible for Labour?s unexpected defeat. The Sun itself published a headline stating that it was ?The Sun wot won it?.

In 1997 Labour got back into power after 18 years. Before that election The Sun changed its allegiance from Tory to Labour as did the Star. The Independent switched from being neutral in 1992 to backing Labour. One study showed that overall, during the 1997 campaign more than twice as many people were reading a newspaper that backed Labour as were reading one that supported the Conservatives. And look what effect that had.

I have a hundren more examples but am at work and might be fired if I let myself get carried away!

Well, you could be right. Personally, I don't have a problem with the death penalty. I could hand it out to people like Ian Huntley with no regrets. However, this thread is about a referendum (or rather lack there of) on the EU constitution / treaty.

I can't stand smug politicians who think they are better and smarter than the people who voted for them (but of course no one actually voted for Gordon Brown as PM).

We all have brains and we choose how to use them. I'm not a puppet. Some other people might be. But, what is the alternative? To end freeedom of the press? I think that would be a bad idea and I hope you do too.

Not holding a vote because you think the voters are fools or because you think they are merely puppets to the media is very insulting to the people. Does Gordon Brown really think the people will appreciate this pompous attitude?

Wot artichokes said

so, how many of you lot who want a referendum really understand the details and implilcations of the treaty then?

having said that, artichokes - the sun certainly did claim to have won that election, but it didn't have the huge effect that you imply. In fact, Labour did win a higher share of the overall vote than the polls predicted, and a clear majority of sun readers voted labour (I think it was 70% - don't have the figure to hand). It wasn't the sun wot won it, but the iniquities of the first past the post system.

But haven't Sun readers always though the Sun was a Labour paper?

"sun readers" is probably a bit of a contradiction in terms anyway...

(joke. before I get leapt upon for intellectual snobbery or somesuch)

The Sun support the party that it thinks is going to win. It is traditionally a Tory rag. The best joke is, all the Sun readers think it is a labour paper for working class people. Clearly they are too much concentrated on the tits on page 3 and insufficiently concentrated on the words of "the Sun says".

In any case, left wing, right wing, Labour, Conservative are now words largely irrelevant to modern party politics. New Labour is Tory and Lib Dems (formerly Liberal party and Social Democrats) are old Labour.