How can Gordon Brown justify £5.3 billion for ID cards?

[eleusis]

Let the bidding commence

How is he going to pay for this? And why why why is it necessary?

£5.3 billion!! And we all know these things are never in budget. God help us.

i can't believe he is falling for all this "we must be insular - terrorosts are abound .....aboooooooounnnnnnnnnd" shit.

fuck a duck

right inbetween mi barcode and mi piles ..oooohhh

lol at custy

If you really want a good reason to complain about civil liberties, try living in Zimbabwe.

I live in mainland Europe. Just renewed my identity card yesterday as a matter of fact. Took me 5 mins and cost Euros 7.50. Doesn't infringe upon my civil liberties in any way (as has been mentioned, once you have a credit card/address you are "in the system" anyway).

Because I was slightly late renewing it, the local police came to call at my address and check that I actually live here and am who I say I am. (If you talk to any policeman in the UK, identifying folk is an extremely big and time-consuming problem.) So identity cards are just hugely practical. No big deal at all ... as was the introduction of the Euro ... but that's for another thread.

Well, seeing as that you can't even ride a train to the next station for the equivalent of 7.5euros, my chief problem is the cost.

Gordon sticks it to the little guy up the tailpipe at every chance he gets.

He doesn't need another one.

Hmm, I think that the Brits are being a bit too complicated with this whole thing.

I live in Germany, DH has a ID card (compulsary) but it doesnt have all the info on it that the British ID card may have. It states his name, address, DOB and town of birth, has a photo. ummm, that is it I think. It is valid for travel within the EU.

He also has a passport, which is noncompulsary for travel to countries outwith the EU.

A problem that I have is that Germany has an Ausweispflicht, which means you have to be able to identify yourself. This is done by showing your ID card, which most people have in their wallet/purse. Since I don't have one, and I am not carrying my passport around with me, it would be a pain if I were to get stopped by the police. I would then have to go to the policestation within a certain timeframe.

Noone here sees it as an infringement of civil liberties, but that is probably because there is no extra info stored on the card. Just the basics. And that certainly doesnt cost anything like what the British gov. it talking about spending

XpatinS - I agree with you about Gordon and his stealth taxes - but think how much 9/11 cost the US economy. Money spent on protecting national security is surely money well spent.

Hey, don't speak to me about the US after 9/11. I knew people who were in those towers, one of whom isn't with us anymore.

That's a lot of the reason I left - I'm American, btw, married to a Scotsman and now a naturalised British citizen.

The scaremongering and paranoia there after that happened I found chilling. The way people were willing to sell up civil liberties others bought for them with their lives without a second thought, all in the name of 'security' and patriotism.

Hmm, what other time in history did that happen? Not too long ago as I recall.

As long as they were fat and happy it was a-okay.

And you know what, it's all a crock. If someone wants to blow you up or kill you in the name of religion or whatever, they'll find a way to do it.

How do you 'protect' everyone and keep them 'secure' from their own countrymen? I mean, weren't most of the 7/7 bombers British?

No place is safe.

And charging people tons of money they don't have for a piece of plastic certainly isn't going to make anything any safer.

I haven't read the whole OP, but I find the whole issue of ID cards an infringement of civil liberty.

I know who I am. Funnily enough, so does the tax man. I have a birth certificate and I have a passport, and if it that's not enough, then I don't know what the hell is.

This country is over-regulated. ID cards are yet another excuse to screw us into the ground.

I havnt read all thread but I will not on principle have a identity card not now not ever

Difference between ID card systems on the continent and in the UK is that our government is proposing to store much, much more information than any government ever has about its citizens on one massive database. Even bigger than the NHS electronic medical records system which is already the biggest civilian IT database in the world.

So our government is planning the TWO biggest databases in the world to store our personal, private information. And why would they want to spend all those billions doing something that other governments don't find necessary? I'd like to have an honest answer, frankly.

This is on a wholly different scale to existing ID cards in other countries. And frankly I don't care what other countries do, the people there can vote according to their own priorities. We have only ever had ID cards during the war. And there was massive public protest when the government tried to keep them on afterwards, with one brave man refusing and being taken to court.

Well I intend to refuse, as well. It will be interesting to see how the government fares if enough people stand up against them on this issue.

Xpats - a friend of mine died in the towers -that's why I feel so strongly about helping the police do their job.

So sorry about your friend, greyhairs.

Expat also lost a friend, but just sees the problem of ID cards from a different perspective. Obviously, enabling the police to do their job more effectively is something we all hope for, but I'm not convinced that it would have made any difference.

£5.3 billion would be better spent on the investigation and prosecution of extremist organisations within our midst (and beyond it). Forcing everyday citizens to carry an Identity Card is a different issue, imo.

Thanks Des. I'm just attempting (prob rather badly!) to put across the view of someone I went to school with, who is now a fairly senior policeman. It's not that the lack of identity cards is diverting all the resources away from funds that have been specifically ring-fenced for routing out extremist organisations - which I totally agree should be spent - but that it takes time and resources and manpower away from the overall security effort. (You only have to watch one of those Traffic Cop episodes to see the time and hassle that goes in to identifying someone, before the police even get to investigating the incident itself.)

You absolutely cannot protect the world from religious (or any other sort) of fanatic but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. ID cards are simply a good tool for doing that.

The US is now a police state, IMO.

I used to think like that, greyhairs, when the idea was first mooted. But the more I've thought about it, the more I see it as a flagrant breach of the democratic principle.

A British born Muslim Extremist/Christian Extremist/Animal Rights Extremist (the list is endless) gets an ID card, because he or she is born and bred in the UK.

Said extremist then decides to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

In what way does the ID card protect us from that?

Hundreds of thousands of people are hiding away in the UK illegally. They won't get an ID card, because we don't know they're here.

So, again, how does the ID card protect us from their activities?

But little old me, a tax payer, no criminal record, a pretty steady old gal in all respects ... just why do I need one, and in what way will that make the world a safer place to be?

Greyhairs , please don't think I'm having a pop at you. I'm not. I once thought the same way you do ... and you may keep your opinion on ID cards without losing any Brownie Points in my eyes! It's good to stand firm on what you believe.

But for me? It will be a cold day in hell before the UK government forces this piece of worthless plastic on me.

Des - no offence taken whatsoever [smiley]- yr posts v. interesting and v. well expressed

I guess we must agree to differ and nowt wrong with that ...

I don't object to IDs on principle because (as mentioned earlier) I have one and it doesn't cause me any problem (practically or philosophically speaking). It's a non-issue where I live and is totally accepted (and indeed supported) by the local community.

I'm no expert but as far as I'm aware what the police say are that id cards would help with the process of finding out who is actually residing in a country legally and who isn't; also with routine policing such as investigations in to money laundering of funds which are then used by terrorists.

Here's a clip from the Police Federation website:

"If an individual is stopped by the police, they would be able to confirm their identity instantly; the result of which is that they would not have to report to a police station ? a lengthy process that would amount to a far greater infringement of their liberty.

Although they would undoubtedly create another hurdle for terrorists we have never claimed them to be a panacea for all forms of criminality. Nevertheless, we live in an age in which security will be paramount for the foreseeable future and all available measures should therefore be taken.

Other advantages exist including the added security individuals benefit from, by freeing up police time, helping in the prevention of fraud, reducing the problems of bogus callers as well as providing proof of age for pubs, clubs and other age-restricted areas."

I'm not a policeman btw (or married to one) or indeed an apologist for the police force as a whole. Just trying to present the alternative view that the practical benefits could potentially outweighth the - not unimportant - civil liberty aspects.

Thanks for your post, greyhairs. I found it really interesting, and there are many points that I agree with.

I think there's a cultural difference. You see, one of the problems with the UK adoption of Identity Cards would be the compulsion aspect: that whenever you go out, you must have your ID card with you.

I'll hazard a guess that the UK government will not be able to push that through legislation. In which case, the ID Card becomes nothing more than a glorified Driver's License.

I see the problems you describe, but I view the solution from the different end of the telescope, I guess.

The nefarious activities of the global minority should not, ever, interfere with the day-to-day activities of the law-abiding majority.

Because the day that happens, surely they've won?

"The nefarious activities of the global minority should not, ever, interfere with the day-to-day activities of the law-abiding majority. "

Absolutely Desi - we can totally agree on that one - I just don't look upon the carrying of an id card as anything onerous at all (even though it is compulsory to carry one here = whole thing pretty pointless if not) and I see it as a pragmatic tool in the fight against the nefarious few ...

Agree about cultural difference too - unwritten constitution and all that - 'the state' being much more present in one's life here but in ways that are (in reality) more good than bad (receiving a congratulatory letter from the Burgomaster of yr commune on the birth of your child, being invited to your local commune headquarters to celebrate a 50-yr wedding anniversary, being invited to submit suggestions on how to improve your local area, being invited (as a foreigner) to participate in local elections etc etc.

Sorry - rambling now - must be tired. Had better hit the sack! I'm on late night child 'high temperature' watch patrol so I've really appreciated the debate and the company !!

Are you from Switzerland, greyhairs?

No, (unfortunately for my waistline) the land of good beer and chocolate ... Belgium ...

Ah! God, I love Belgium. I've been there a fair few times over the years!

Any how, I'm sure we'll meet up again on threads. I like the sound of you.

Now, GO TO BED or you'll be knackered in the morning!

U 2

and U 2

G'night .... x