Head guilty of Hand S breaches which led to pupil's death .

[LIZS]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/6925503.stm Can't help thinking that this is the thin end of the wedge as far as our children being given scope to play is concerned. Obviously the accident ahd very sad consequences but how does the financial penalty and a civil case by the parents help ? At what age is it acceptable to expect children to obey out of bounds rules without constant supervision. Does Ofsted apply in Wales ,and if so, if it was such an obviosu hazard why had it not previously been noted as an action point .

I think a lot of you are missing the point here.
Of course it was an accident, but it was an accident that was foreseeable (pointed out by the fact that the children knew the steps were 'out of bounds') and easily preventable (by adequate supervision and a gate).
The stairs in question (and from what I've heard there were 14 of them in total so nothing to stop a child jumping from the top if he/she felt like it) were deeper than normal stairs in the home so further to fall.
The fact that the child died was unusual, but even if he had only been injured the HSE could (and possibly would) have prosecuted the school.
The Health and Safety 'expert' who stated that the fall was: "no more dangerous than falling off the arm of a sofa" was probably the one acting on the headteacher's behalf so (to quote) "he would say that, wouldn't he"
Head Teachers are not bombarded with H & S information, it's just the fact that so many of the are totally clueless about it that it seems like a burden.
Finally, of course children need to live in the real world and of course the real world is full of risks and we can't and should't ever get rid of all of them. But we can try to reduce ones which are obvious, which I think this particular one was.

Same here, naily.

Personally I would not have let my chn play on stone steps as 3 year olds. All the nursery schools that I know of (attached to primaries) have a seperate nursery and less than 25 chn. There are always at least 2 members of staff. I don't think the argument of supervising infant or junior play by yourself is relevant - I do that also in my job- it's legal. But 3 year olds fall into a different category.

good for you, leati
i chose to teach my children how to use the stairs safely, myself, therefore i didnt require a stairgate

nailpolish,

I do respect your point of view and I don't want you to leave the thread disheartened. I think that we all bring different life experiences to these things and those determine how we look at things.

leati

yes i agree with you there

nailpolish,

Tell me how to teach my 18 month old to carefully climb stairs? Even when I am with her and have let her try, she has fallen and I have had to catch her.

she can crawl up and down for just now until her legs are less wobbly. i used to tell my dds to crawl down backwards or bump down on their bottoms

you could even lower the handrail

Those are good ideas and I will try them but I think until she gets a little older I will keep the gate up.

leati, i would never ever critisise or judge anyone for using a stairgate

just wanted you to know that

lifes too short

I have a question for all the moms on here. Is it common for a three year old to attend a regular school? Or do they usually attend a preschool? I find this part of the discussion confusing.

a lot of shcools have the preschools attached
they dont usually run around in the same playground though. ist usually seperate to avoid the little ones getting knocked over by the bigger boys and girls running about

okay that makes sense.

I too never had a stair gate and taught ds to go up and down them safely. Becasue he started before he could walk, he was always very safe and never once fell.

I had half meant to get a set for the upper staors (we live on the first and second floors) as they are steeper and narrower and on a spiral, but having watched him, I never bothered.

they start mornings only at 3 and a half here

You see here they are almost always seperated. Occasionally, you will see a preschool on a school campus but it is fenced and operates seperately from the school. So at first i was confused a bit.

We had a stairgate but after a while only used it at night in case a sleepy child fell down the stairs whilst wandering into our room. The reason we didn't use it during the day - all my children learned very early on to climb over the damn thing which struck as much more dangerous than not having one at all.

prettybird, my dds were going up and down stairs too before they could walk. i think that is the main reason they didnt fall - they werent on their feet. you cant really fall if you are already on your bottom

this sums it up I think

The trouble is the potential ripple effect of this case - this might have been an obvious hazard (not seen pics but agree that there is a suggestion it was a known risk and accident avoidable) , how many other schools and authoirities will now review their facilities , often limited in the first place, to err on the side of caution. Children need to learn about danger, risk assessment, sensible behaviour and personal responsibilty but will only be able to do this through experience and opportunities to feel the boundaries in safe, age appropriate circumstances. Overreaction and predetermining the limits well within the accepted safety levels may do them no favours.

LIZS

You do make some valid points about what could happen as a result of this case. It would help if there were standard guidelines. I think at three, a child needs to be better supervised. One of the articles refers to the child as believing he was batman.

I can relate because when my son was little he loved batman. I made him a batman costume one year, and he lived in the thing. Well one day he was out on top story balcony and he stood up on a chair and looked down. Then he looked at me and said, "I am batman, and batman flies."
I looked back at him and said, "This batman does not fly."

After that, I got a high lock on the door leading to the balcony. It was a saftey precaution because I became aware of the potential danger. BTW he was three too.

i can understand teh family being so upset they felt the need to place blame....somewhere, anywhere.

this is just a litigious society gone mad. how long until our children really are walking to school in a big bubble like the marg advert?

DD1 started nursery afternoons when she was 3years, 2 months old.

It's attached to the primary school, but separate playgrounds and they go through the nursery entrance.