Boy 10 mauled to death at holiday park

[Witchofzog]

I can't link on this phone but it is on most news sites. The owner was found off site after a police hunt so possibly fled when she knew her dog had killed a child. It's just awful - a young boy probably just going to the loo in the middle of the night on a campsite having his life ended because of a dangerous dog and an owner who can't control and/ or keep it securely away

Dogs have been kept as pets as well as workers for millennia. There were toy dogs in Roman times.

I don't think sweeping generalisations about the MN 'dog lobby' are at all helpful. I would be happy to see restrictions on certain breed types. Elements of canine behaviour do vary by breed due to genetics and while there will always be exceptions, the stats do seem to show that some breeds are more dangerous than others. This is unlikely to be due entirely to nurture, as there are plenty of cases where a family had a dog from a puppy and it suddenly 'turned'.

I say this as someone who used to have a JRT, often regarded as a difficult breed. They vary hugely in temperament, but a pretty high proportion are right little buggers who need competent and consistent handling, and an awareness of their propensity to dog aggression.

I love dogs. I think they contribute massively to family life and training and working with a dog will teach you things about yourself as well as about another species that you would never have guessed at otherwise.

See that's the thing about breed. Jack Russell's are known to be snappy and can be aggressive. But I wouldn't worry about having one in the house with my now teenage children (I wouldn't with a baby or toddler). Because if it did attack we could overpower it.

The same can't be said for a Labrador, which are generally seen as docile. (Although this isn't always the case). They are strong dogs and if one were to turn on me I could be in serious danger.

Yes, training and upbringing have a big factor, but unpredictable things can happen - brain tumours, tripping and falling on a sleeping dog etc which can make a placid dog attack. If the worst happens I want to be confident I can defend myself.

The history of how these breeds have developed is concerning to say the least. When people use the term 'domesticated' it gives the impression that dogs have been genetically modified to live in a house, in a family situation. But this is not what 'domesticated for 1000s of years' means

Take the 'Staffie'

...the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, like the Bull Terrier, descends from the Bull and Terrier, a type of dog developed in the United Kingdom in the early 19th century for the blood sportsof dog fighting and rat baiting. The crossbred Bull and Terrier was created by crossing the ferocious, thickly muscled Old English Bulldogwith the agile, lithe, feisty Black and Tan Terrier. The aggressive Old English Bulldog, which were bred forbear and bull baiting, was often also pitted against its own kind in organised dog fights,...

In 2019,ITV’s Britain's Favourite Dogs declared this dog, specifically bred as a killing machine in the flesh, to be the most popular dog breed in Britain.

...and as I read this thread there is an advert on the TV with a dog laid on a couch with a TV remote control in it's paw.

This is another thing. How dogs are portrayed in media and advertising. Keeping dogs as pets is backed up by a multi billion pound/dollar/euro industry. Aisle after aisle of dog paraphernalia is on display in stores, this includes items labelled as 'toys'. Toys that are often very similar to baby and toddler toys.

Any reformers for the introduction of stricter laws on keeping dogs are up against a giant industry, as well as dog owners. An industry that often promotes the dangerous idea of dogs having human characteristics.

If anyone is interested in stricter laws on owning dogs, there is an American website called dogsbite.org
The USA seems to be ahead of the UK on all this and there appears to be a growing anti-dog movement happening there.

I agree that in the case of the dog the term domesticated is misleading it suggests that we have bred for docility and friendliness to humans certainly this is the case in some breeds but in other breeds we have bred for characteristics which are very different

when we say that dogs have been domesticated what we mean is that they have been put into the service of human desires, when it comes to the fighting dogs and the attack dogs these creatures have been put into the service of the human desire to dominate and terrify

An industry that often promotes the dangerous idea of dogs having human characteristics

I would go further, training humans to treat dogs as fellow humans is the central governing principle of the pet industry
they are acutely aware that the way to get people to spend money on their pets is to train us to treat them as people and not animals

Obviously from my previous posts, people can see I am an avid dog lover! I love the majority of dogs..I do still want some dogs to be banned.

I can understand why responsible dog owners would be upset, getting tarred with the same brush as these vile dog owners. If people were slating my dopey, loving Bassett Hound and JR saying they wanted them all banned, I would be upset.

From the photo of the dog that was put up, that owner should be bloody banned!! If I was to try and open that owners gate (not that I would associate myself with anybody, that wanted to have a dog that looked like that!) and the dog was friendly I would walk in. Would I let my children..no.

But I wouldn't let my children around any new dogs. And I would never leave my children in the same room alone with any dog, including my own!

The muscle dog picture is terrifying, that dog has been designed to terrify and dominate, it is a weapon
Anyone who fancies a dog like that can buy one, there are no restrictions

@HearHere
Yes agree and even people, including children, who don't own dogs are constantly bombarded with it.

Dog owners telling us to keep our children away from their dogs- as if we want them near dogs anyway, but children see adverts of 'cute' dogs on TV all the time and you cannot watch a child every second of the day. Parks and other similar public places are supposed to be areas where children can run around freely, climb on slides and other the equipment, sit on the grass and eat a picnic in peace

The training of dogs is another thing I find problematic. We are constantly told that dogs must be trained and controlled, this often seems to involve a dog being punished, and rewarded with food . All this time and effort spent attempting to alter a dogs behaviour and yet they still attack. Even dogs supposedly well trained and controlled still attack

Why, not how, do dogs have to be trained in the first place?
What is the reason for keeping a dog on a lead?
How will dogs behave if they are not trained or not kept on a lead?
Why do so many trainers disagree with each other?

The more muscular Staffs etc are just exaggerated versions of the dogs generally.

There is no such thing as an unintimidating Staff, rottweiler, doberman etc, whatever their devotees might say.

Yes I agree on the toys etc..going into a pet shop, they do have baby/puppy sections full of toys like look exactly the same as little teddies etc I have bought for my children.

But that is down to an owners lack of knowledge again! If people weren't buying them, then companies wouldn't sell them anymore.

Those types of toys are LETHAL to a dog! Squeaky plastic toys, teddies full of stuffing, that a dog will break apart, eat and then be in the vets, extremely poorly after eating parts of them!

It shows supermarkets selling dog food, and fluffy little teddies for dogs, that the majority of dog owners have hardly any knowledge on dogs. They must be selling otherwise they wouldn't be in the shops!

I suggested previously that if you wish to own a dog, I think it should be the law you are to complete dog training lessons, until a dog trainer/ dog behavioural specialist is satisfied that you are a knowledgable dog owner and have a well trained dog. I got slated by a dog owner because they had read a few books, and now own the best behaved dog in the world.

But if owners did work with a professional they would know, they can't just buy dog food, flea or tick treatment or fluffy little teddies from a supermarket for their dog.

I'm not stupid enough in believing that just because I own a dog, I know everything about them. Our lessons and having a specialist come out was invaluable.

Every dog owner should have to do this!!

But trainers often disagree with each others methods.

The dog trainers the special dog toys the special dog food all the special dog things
the message is that your dog is special, he is your furbaby he is worth it, you feel so special because you have the special fur baby, and so you want to indulge him and he will love you and you will love him
It's all warm and fuzzy and very rewarding and the pet industry is raking it in

Well then stricter rules need to be put into place for them. They shouldn't be disagreeing?
If they have the correct qualifications, they should have all followed the same teaching courses.

But I don't think like that at all, and because I own dogs, who yes are very very special to me. I have made sure that because I love them so so much, I will give them the best possible life I can.

I won't buy them fluffy little toys, that will kill them. I don't buy flea treatment from the supermarket that doesn't work. I don't buy dog food from numerous shops, that doesn't give my dogs the correct nutrients they need, and cause them to be hyper.

Dog owners need educating!

The controversy over the best dog training method serves to amplify and promote the idea that dogs are complex and important creatures who need therapists to attend to their needs and wants

Much of this mirrors the things that we do with children in our culture, the pet industry knows that training as to treat dogs as if they were children is the most profitable approach for them

Dog food, yes another industry selling strategy that gives the impression dogs have human characteristics. I've even seen dog wine on display and dog beer along with dog mince pies and birthday cakes.

A PP poster brought up the fact that dogs contribute to the carbon footprint and pollution. This was a valid point, but unfortunately the poster was shot down and ridiculed for daring to attempt any discussion around the subject

@Flaxmeadow they were shot down because this is thread is about a child dying, due to irresponsible ownership.

I won't buy them fluffy little toys, that will kill them. I don't buy flea treatment from the supermarket that doesn't work. I don't buy dog food from numerous shops, that doesn't give my dogs the correct nutrients they need, and cause them to be hyper.

The reason I brought up dog toys being similar to chldren toys was the danger to children, not dogs.
For example. Imagine an agressive dog that had trained with a particular 'toy'. Imagine this toy equates to aggression and food in the dogs tiny brain (dogs are not particularly clever or intelligent BTW). Any toddler who attempts to remove that toy from the dog is obviously in danger of being growled at, snapped at or "nipped' (whatever nipped means), at the least. It isn't hard to imagine how these situations can go catastrophically wrong

Some dogs are naturally muscly.

My JRT x Dachshund is pretty solid muscle - and as muscle weighs more than fat, and he's little, people are often surprised to hear he weighs 7.5kg.

I've made no special effort to make him muscly - it's just good quality food and plenty of exercise in the fresh air.

Giving a dog food quality food, letting it sleep on your bed and buying toys for the dog isn't about treating your dog as a human. Mine gets all that, and more, but I'm fully aware that he's a dog - he still sniffs other dogs arses, rolls in the most awful things he can find, drinks from puddles, buries bones in the garden, chases grey squirrels (never catches them) and swims in the river (and then he has a warm bath when we get home as anything else is just grim). I do, however, draw the line at fancy clothes for dogs - if it's very cold he wears a very functional coat as he ends up shivering otherwise.

On the topic of toys, dogs intellectually reach the standard of toddlers, so finding that toys resemble children's toys is unsurprising. Mine even has puzzle toys where he has to decipher a puzzle to get his dinner out - and given the choice of dinner in an open bowl or dinner in a puzzle toy he'll choose the puzzle toy every time. His problem solving skills have come on tremendously, to the point that he even surprises me with what he can work out sometimes, in new environments, with no guidance. Does it hurt anyone else if my dog has toys? No - he enjoys them and I enjoy watching him play with them and interaction with him. It's not like they go from dismembering teddy bears to dismembering small children.

To talk of a breed's history 100 years ago is to ignore the many generations of selective breeding that have taken place since then, and the "petification" of many temperaments. As an example, the English Bulldog has changed dramatically over the last 100 years as their original purpose disappeared (see attached pics). The breeders made them into pets, crossed them with pugs, and transformed the breed. They've taken it too far in terms of physical proportions as so many of them have breathing and other problems, but it's not an aggressive breed at all. Good luck getting it to take down a bull - half of them can't get to the end of the street without needing a sit down.

Irish wolfhounds were bred to hunt wolves. Dachshunds were bred to hunt badgers and foxes. They're both now perfectly suitable family pets after many generations of selective breeding. All other things being equal I would prefer to leave my child with an Irish Wolfhound than a Jack Russell - I know which is more likely to snap.

Pics didn't attach...

Dogs intellectually reach the standard of toddlers??
Fuckinghell you don't really believe that do you?

There are 8.9 million dogs kept as pets in the UK (PDSA). The vast majority of them are not dangerous to humans. If they were we would be looking at drastically more than 10,000 injuries a year.

Even if you take your 10,000 injuries caused by dogs each year, that's 0.001% of dogs although i expect some of them would be the same dog on more than one occasion. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but it has to be put into perspective before talking about banning dogs, even specific breeds.

I think absolutely everyone agrees that children, people, should not die from dog attacks and something needs to be done to address that. However some posters don't seem like they would be happy unless all dogs were banned. We can discuss it until were blue in the face but some posters will never agree.

Sadly we live in a world with irresponsible humans. That's true of dog ownership, wreckless driving, murderers, neglectful and abusive people. We should do all we can to minimise where possible but put in to perspective that the vast majority of humans - and dogs - are good to and for society.

I agree with the poster that said they would rather have a dog they could overpower if needed. All dogs can snap but a small dog would do less damage to the average person than a pit bull. It's not always the owners fault. In some fatal attacks, the dog was a well loved family pet who just turned (see dogsbite.org)
If a dog is capable of mauling a child to death, I think it should be banned or restricted. Keep the ban for the pitbulls etc and all other dogs be kept on leads or muzzled in public areas for powerful breeds.

The training of dogs is another thing I find problematic. We are constantly told that dogs must be trained and controlled, this often seems to involve a dog being punished, and rewarded with food . All this time and effort spent attempting to alter a dogs behaviour and yet they still attack. Even dogs supposedly well trained and controlled still attack

Modern dog training does not include punishment, but focuses on food rewards. Training is one part of making sure that a dog is well balanced, but socialisation is the other side - making sure they have positive interactions with other dogs, children, traffic, vacuum cleaners, cars etc etc early in life. It is very possible to have a dog that's well trained and badly socialised. There are dogs out there that will roll over on command but couldn't be trusted around other dogs. As someone who inherited an untrained and undersocialised 14mo, I can assure you that training later in life is much easier to crack than socialisation.

The vast majority of people who have dogs with issues (usually rescues or the result of being attacked by another dog) ensure that everyone is kept safe - muzzled, on lead, yellow warning sign asking others to keep their dog away, quiet locations for exercise. However, you never hear about, and rarely see those dogs because their owners are successfully keeping everyone safe and are keeping away from third parties.

I would, however, heartily agree that the dog training and behaviour industry needs regulation - there are literally no restrictions on who can call themselves a dog trainer or behaviourist and there are some charlatans out there.

For example. Imagine an agressive dog that had trained with a particular 'toy'. Imagine this toy equates to aggression and food in the dogs tiny brain (dogs are not particularly clever or intelligent BTW). Any toddler who attempts to remove that toy from the dog is obviously in danger of being growled at, snapped at or "nipped' (whatever nipped means), at the least. It isn't hard to imagine how these situations can go catastrophically wrong

In much the same way as you teach your children to look before crossing the road, they should not be approaching strange dogs without permission, let alone trying to take a toy away from a dog.

If a dog was trained to be aggressive using toys in the way you imagine (unlikely) then you'd have to be a total moron to leave the dog with that toy unsupervised.

The old rules around dogs - let sleeping dogs lie, let the dog eat in peace, let the dog come to you not you to it, don't take the dog's toys away, don't kick the dog... All are still relevant.

It's also important to note that dogs can have an excellent sense of what is theirs and what is not. Mine will happily destroy a toy I have given him, but when he's met small relatives and they have soft toys he's ignored them - but if I picked them up and gave them to him he'd destroy those same toys he's ignored.

If you really wanted to train a dog to be aggressive in the crudest way possible you'd not take it out of the house for the first few months of life then administer pain every time the dog saw what you wanted it to be aggressive towards.