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Original poster

Does the NHS have an (unhealthy) obsession with vaginal birth?

71 replies

eastmidlandsmove · 10/05/2018 23:16

There's a really upsetting news story about a premature baby who was in the breech position who died when a doctor insisted on vaginal delivery. The details are really quite distressing.

The case is clearly horrific and exceptional, but I was wondering if it maybe reflects NHS pushing women for vaginal birth. I used to think this was a great thing, but I keep hearing so many stories where women knew something was wrong and asked for a C section, and they were ignored.

OP posts:
LittleGreySheep · 11/05/2018 20:47

Imo yes, the NHS is obsessed with vaginal births. At least partly due to financial reasons because vaginal births cost less.

My baby was extremely large and overdue, but the NHS did nothing and left me until I went into natural labour at 42 weeks with a back-to-back baby on the 99th percentile. Then they let me labour for over 24 hours before finally admitting a natural midwife-led birth simply wasn't possible and sending me to the delivery suite for induction and forceps. The doctor on duty took one look at me and told them not to be so ridiculous, I needed an emergency c-section. Afterwards the same doctor said I should have been induced around 38 weeks due to macrosomia (excessively large baby) and the baby was post mature (cracked and peeling skin, long nails, more developed and alert than a newborn would be expected to be).

postwoman · 11/05/2018 20:48

It’s really offensive to suggest the doctor was (in the incredible stress of a delivery going horribly wrong) thinking “oh I need to save my employer some money here

This^^
It doesn't make ANY sense.

postwoman · 11/05/2018 20:49

What would people prefer? C sections as standard? C sections at the first sign of any problems?

postwoman · 11/05/2018 20:50

@postwoman many of them don't want to get your baby out at all I. E. They want it to haplen on the next shift if possible

BOLLOCKS

bookworm14 · 11/05/2018 20:54

This is one of the worst cases of medical negligence I have ever heard of. Regardless of whether the doctor was ideologically motivated or just incompetent, she should never be allowed to practise medicine again.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 11/05/2018 21:10

It’s really offensive to suggest the doctor was (in the incredible stress of a delivery going horribly wrong) thinking “oh I need to save my employer some money here

Hmm

Obviously it doesn't work like that. Over many years a culture has built up within the NHS that vaginal deliveries should be aimed for at all costs. Therefore when this mother presented to the doctor her initial attitude was try for a vaginal delivery. It clearly then got to a point where it was impossible to reverse and she panicked and killed the baby.

It was also cultural that no one else intervened despite what they saw happening (another doctor who was in the delivery room and watched it all gave evidence today if you can bear to stomach reading it). Someone should have fucking shoved her out of the room and yet they all stood by and watched...

gussyfinknottle · 11/05/2018 21:15

I was told they couldn't do a c section while I was in labour having difficulties because they didn't have enough staff on.

Mybabystolemysanity · 11/05/2018 22:22

Does anyone know if this doctor was still practicing in 2016? I can't find any information about what happened subsequently. Would she have been suspended from practice after the incident pending a hearing?

Sausagema · 11/05/2018 22:28

G8ven that according to the online statistics for this hospital state that cs rates are around 30%, there's not a lot of avoiding sections at all costs going on given that it's higher than the national average.

Sausagema · 11/05/2018 22:29

very poorly written, hope it makes sense!

Moonflower12 · 11/05/2018 23:04

My 4th child was breech at33 weeks. It was straight away decided that she needed to be s c section despite me wanting a vaginal birth very much so I don't think there is a 'vagina or nothing ' agenda. Maybe it depends on the Trust or individual doctors?

silverpenguin · 11/05/2018 23:28

I think that's a separate issue from this really awful distressing case. Sadly there will always be occasions of very poor judgement and tragic outcomes (like this one), not just in childbirth but all types of medicine. They aren't necessarily reflective of an overall trend, and this was an unusual case with quite specific circumstances.

Most women I know in real life don't/didn't want a C section anyway so I'm not sure it's the NHS pushing people towards attempting a vaginal birth against their will. Certainly I was pretty determined that I wanted to at least try for a vaginal birth even though if I'd really pushed for it I think they would have agreed to a C section.

Of course on MN it seems to be the opposite and it seems a majority think C sections are the best option!

NinaMarieP · 11/05/2018 23:51

The hospital in that story is the one I delivered at, as did pretty much everyone local I know who has had children.

I was born by section there and delivered my baby vaginally.

I don't think the NHS as a whole has an obsession, but some doctors definitely have their own personal biases. There are plenty of stories of women wanting a vaginal birth and being told they "can't" as well as women who want a section and are told they will be fine without.

Want2bSupermum · 12/05/2018 11:41

I think blaming this doctors incompetence on NHS funding is absolutely ridiculous. The doctor, a consultant, should have known the protocols. Absolutely disgraceful that they have needed so many years since the incident to remove her license.

When I read the article I felt so so bad for the mother and what she must have gone through. Saying it's an NHS being hell bent on natural births minimizes the actual problem of the medical profession not being willing to remove medical licenses fast enough from those not fit to practice.

EB123 · 12/05/2018 14:57

This story is horrific. That poor mother.

I don't think it was about the NHS pushing vaginal birth, i had an undiagnosed breech baby, when a consultant realised he was breech (after being in labour for around 45 hours) he was delivered very quickly by crash c section. My sis in law also had an undiagnosed breech and had a c section. There was no choice given to try vaginally.

NordicNobody · 12/05/2018 15:06

I haven't read the story and dont think I can bring myself to do so, but my personal experience was the opposite. I had a failed induction and they really pushed me to have a c section even though I wasn't even at term yet and their suspicions of there being a problem were based on very tenuous evidence. I declined and said I would wait a week, go to term, then try the induction again. It worked the second time but my labour was rough and they kept on pushing me to just have the C. I really really didn't want one but in the end things just weren't progressing so they prepped me for surgery. In theatre I insisted the doctor at least have a go at getting my son out with forcepts/ ventouse. He came out that way, via assisted delivery, and was perfectly healthy so there was no need for me to even be induced let alone have a C section. Obviously I would have had one if there had been clear evidence that I needed to, but even when I was first recommended for induction the doctor admitted that she didn't really think I needed it and it was only because I fell very slightly within the parameters for a new scheme they were trialling at the hospital. So yeh, I had a vaginal birth in the end but I had to really really advocate for it and felt very pressured to have a c section.

PinguDance · 12/05/2018 15:07

There was a similar-ish case at the Portland (so these things aren’t just nhs issues) where a baby died after the doctor failed to recognise the need for a section. It made the news as it was a footballer called Jake livermores’s family. With hindsight it’s seems like an error of judgement from the obstetrician but it does make you wonder why she encouraged a natural birth, suggests to me there is some level of influencing agenda.

yearofthehorse · 12/05/2018 15:12

I had the opposite. My baby was breech and I had to campaign long and hard for vaginal birth. I was finally allowed a trial of labour on the understanding that at the first sign of distress I would go straight to theatre. Everything was fine.

FormerlyPickingOakum · 12/05/2018 15:25

I have a bit of insight into this type of predicament. My suspicion is that the consultant didn't know what the hell she was doing and just panicked.

She may have never come across a 25 week live birth before. It's rather uncommon for many maternity wards. As it was a footling and waters were already gone, the feet would have been birthed fairly quickly. Add in the cord prolapse and you've a tricky situation.

I suspect she treated it like a breech at term birth, forgetting that... erm...it wasn't.

I say this because I've had a lot of obstetric care for prem labours, and some of the utter shit some local consultants and obstetric surgeons came out with was mind-blowing. If they aren't a specialist in a particular area, they often tell you things that are actually medically dangerous.

Personally, I think this consultant should face criminal charges. It's ridiculous in this day and age that the NHS has to resort to consulting the airline industry just to learn about basic protocols to avoid stupid mistakes, like leaving fucking scissors inside a patient or decapitating an infant.

Original poster
eastmidlandsmove · 12/05/2018 15:44

Just to be clear, I never thought individual frontline staff would go for vaginal deliveries to save money, more due to a general culture in the NHS which has a prefers vaginal births which might even come into play when stuff goes wrong.

OP posts:
Want2bSupermum · 12/05/2018 16:28

formally A 25 week delivery isn't so uncommon. As a consultant she should have known what to do. She completely failed. The others in the room didn't intervene, which is understandable.

The fact that this happened in March 2014 is what shocks me the most. It's four years later and only now is this being heard by the general medical council. To me that's disgraceful. I would have thought she would have been immediately suspended and this assessed by the general medical counsel within 12 months at most. Reading the information available I think it should follow with a trial to assess if this is manslaughter. I also think there should be a public inquiry into how and why it took 4 years to assess if this doctor is fit to practice.

sweetboykit · 12/05/2018 16:33

That doctor should go to prison for murder. She must have had to pull hard for that to happen. I was so upset when I read what she did.

BlueEyedBengal · 12/05/2018 16:40

This story really made my heart jump I was so shocked by it. I have had 6 children and my first was a esc that saved my now 27yr old 6ft son ( he was only 5 lbs) he has been totally fine and went to and graduated form university. I have had great treatment from my nhs deliveries my thoughts and prayers go out to this little one and the mum and Dad So sad for their loss and hope lessons are learned from this horrific event

boatyardblues · 12/05/2018 17:01

I just googled this case as I’d not heard about it (somewhat avoiding the news at the mo). It was utterly barbaric. I can’t imagine what the parents went through, and are probably still going through.

I have a family member who had woeful care during a very prem labour that ended in a crash section with a live, but very poorly baby. It could have easily have gone the other way without the rapid intervention of the doctor that came on at a shift change (thank God) and realised how imminent the unfolding calamity was (start of a placental abruption amongst other issues). My relative was traumatised for a long time afterwards, but fortunate to (eventually) be able to take her baby home.

I feel desperately sad for the family in this case.

expatinscotland · 12/05/2018 17:03

Why are there so many undiagnosed breech babies?