Parents at war risk losing children

[DrBlackbird]

Anyone else alarmed by the new 'initiative' being rolled out by Cafcass - the government organisation deemed 'not fit for purpose' in the past by Chair of Chair of the UK Commons Public Accounts Committee - that includes the possibility of it stopping contact between child and parent due to parent alienation?!

First of all, this organisation has created a threat that ultimately harms the very people they are supposed to protect. Secondly, the article in The Guardian yesterday carefully avoids using gender pronouns, but concluded with a quote by the Chair of Families Need Fathers saying that this new approach was 'welcome news'. Strikes me that this initiative is at risk of being used (abused) more by malicious fathers than mothers. This concern is based on two observations.

One, witnessing the vindictive and extremely manipulative actions of the ex's of my SiL's as well as several friends. In each case they were incredibly vicious to their ex-wives and went to huge lengths to ruin them financially ('welcome to a life on benefits' / 'I'm going to make you spend every penny you have and your parents') as well as emotionally (telling Cafcass workers that they these women were unbalanced etc). Strangely, in each of the cases it was the ex having an affair that split the marriage up.

Two, in each case the Cafcass reps were poorly trained, often young, and not well trained in collecting and analysing evidence relying instead on subjective impressions. This is not just my impressions either as Ofsted has criticised Cafcass in the past for "no evidence of a consistent assessment model used by staff" and "•case records often did not show how Cafcass had come to its conclusions about children".

And this is the organisation that has developed this 'ground-breaking process' that can ultimately end in severing contact between a child and one parent?

I was under the impression that UK courts didn’t believe in PA. Its more of a US thing.

Tbh I’m inclinded to think it’s very very rare. Usually the excuse of a rubbish fathers because “she’s turned them against me”

Aeroflot your comments on PAS
are nonsense . They are well established amongst court psychiatrists in establishing what is right under Child Matters

I have to disagree shakesspear, in my DV support group I have seen it used by judges as a means of taking children away from protective mothers. I am not saying it does not happen, it does, but it should be applied vary carefully, and each case treated individually. PAS certainly needs more research, and peer review.

An interesting read america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/24/does-a-controversialdiagnosishelpfathersdodgeabusecharges.html

I think the problem is that CAFCASS are eluding parental alienation and attempts to thwart contact by the resident parent. But that’s an oversimplification and misses the ample opportunities for parental alienation by the non-resident parent.

When my parents split up we stayed with my mum and were supposed to see my dad EOW. From the very start contact was characterised by his attempts to alienate us from our mother. He’d just complain about her and tell us how awful she was (to him, to us, in general) the entire time.

Quite shortly after that my sister stopped contact with him. I can’t quite work out if he refused to see her or she refused to see him (and my mum didn’t make her go). Or a mix of both.

So I went to contact on my own. Mostly I got to hear his complaints about my mum and then be dumped at my grandparents. He was awful and it ruined my possibilities for friendships at school (since I’d end up at the other side of the city). Once I was an adult and had DS1 I decided to cut all contact with my father because I couldn’t bear DS1 suffering the emotional abuse I had from him.

But I suspect, under the cafcass plan, it would be my mum fighting accusations of parental alienation from her wanker of an ex who’d been given a convenient stick to beat her with. And all the while, he’d have been busy waving his campaign of parental alienation abuse against me. It wasn’t even that he wanted custody; he just wanted to take something away from my mum because he’s a bastard.

It is very worrying then, if court psychiatrists are relying on this theory, to determine what is right. Abusive partners (mostly men), do continue their abuse of vulnerable mothers in the courtroom, and can use PAS as a way of continuing their control and abuse of the mother, that is why it has to be used very carefully, especially in cases where there is evidence of DV and abuse.

I’m a Cafcass officer and I am alarmed about the way that this initiative has been reported. This will only take place if both parents are agreeing at some level. It will not be used in high risk cases. However I know of cases where children are at high risk of emotional harm because of the behaviour of the resident parent; these are parents who believe that the child does not need both parents or who want to punish the other parent via controlling contact with the child. These resources will be targeted at those families where the children are being damaged by the behaviour of one or the other parent, and often both of them. I have spoken to parents who tell me that the other parent ‘doesn’t deserve’ a child. Unfortunately there are some parents who completely lose sight of their child’s needs as part of their desire to carry on a vendetta against the other parent. And the last Ofsted report for Cafcass in 2014 was largely good and outstanding.

Aeroflotgirl that article is very interesting and horrific.

I had no idea of the background to the parental alienation theory - no idea that it had been used so much against women in the US.

Typically here you see it with abusive men who try to get alienate the children from their mother as revenge for leaving him.

these are parents who believe that the child does not need both parents or who want to punish the other parent via controlling contact with the child

But I've seen that used against women who are trying to control contact with their ex because he was abusive and they're trying to protect their child.

Eexactly Riding, it happens very often, and here as well. That is why judges shoukd be very careful when applying it it, not in cases where there has been evidence of DV and abuse. FC judges need extensive training in DV and coercive control.

When the women does eventually leave her abusive partner, it makes him ver angry, he looses control of her, so the only other way he can get to her is through the kids, and contact.he does not necessarily want contact with then, but uses it as a means of controlling the woman. He will claim parental alienation so that residency is passed onto him, if the judge is not versed in DV and coercive control. Therefore PAS has to be applied very carefully, the judge has to be extremely certain and have concrete evidence that The resident parent (usually woman), is alienating the he child from the non resident parent.

My DH has not seen his son for 5 years. My 2DC do not know their half brother. We are a naice Middle class family in a naice village. We have a court order, but his ex remarried, moved on, decided son had too and no longer needed his father. All she had to say, and have him say, is 'I don't want to see him any more'. And that's it. He doesn't get a father, DH doesn't have a son. Parental alienation absolutely happens, and is far too easy. I don't think the courts will get Their approach right for a long time if ever, but they do have to acknowledge it exists.

these are parents who believe that the child does not need both parents or who want to punish the other parent via controlling contact with the child

I’ve had cafcass claim this about a huge % of my client group.

I only work with victims of severe abuse almost all of my cases involve victims whose children have directly been harmed as a result of the abuse.

Around 90% of my service users have left their violent partner because social services were aware of the issue and have been making it fairly clear that a care order would be sought if they didn’t.

These none violent protective parents often get treated like alienating contact blockers.

The only times I’ve ever seen cafcass not take a accusation of alienation seriously is when it’s the mother claiming it against the father.

We live in a society that is all to quick to believe seperated/divorced mothers fit a twisted vengeful stereotype.

This is completely terrifying.

This is a version of a dynamic that has become sickeningly familiar to me. It goes something like this:

man complains about woman - woman is at fault
woman complains about man - woman is at fault, "difficult", "crazy", "disruptive" - etc - no matter how legitimate the complaint - any attempt by a woman to separate herself from a situation where a man is trying to do her harm is perceived as a serious form of non-compliance that must be punished.

This is even what was going on with all the Weinstein stuff - women were effectively given the choice of compliance with a sex pest and silence about it, or losing everything

This is what happens when you have a problem with a senior man at work (not necessarily a problem as serious as sexual assault, but any kind of problem).

The whole fabric of our society is rigged so that women have to put up and shut up. When women are trying to protect children, they don't. And then they get punished for it.

It's deep in the psyche of normal well-meaning people. All the people working in these agencies are honestly doing their best. They just don't see it.

You can see it on here all the time - barrages of "common sense" apologists for low level abusive behaviour by men and reasons why it's the woman's fault because she could have tried even harder to work around what he wanted.

I am so, so, so sad and angry this morning.

Exactly Anti, this is what a lot of women in my support group are going through. Courts bowing down to men, women being made out to be obstructive, and non compliant if they with old contact, due to genuine fears about their child's safety and well being. This mostly in cases where there is Domestic abuse and violence in the relationship. There is fear that pAS can be used by abusive non resident parents and courts as a stick to beat resident parents with.

As someone who had to put up with this kind of 'alienation' (I.e. Emotional abuse) as a child I strongly support laws protecting children from this particularly malicious behaviour. However, I can see the potential for such laws to be abused. The kinds of parents who perpetrate this kind of abuse are typically very manipulative and hide the abuse very well. There is also scope for child lead alienation to be confused for a parent manipulating them. I think that in situations where there is no strong evidence (like a record of text messages/emails, recordings or a past record of antisocial personality disorder in the parent) that a note should be made but nothing more.

In response to PP the bias against women in such instances is a reaction to the bias in favour of women in determining custody. Women can abuse their children too. I would know.

That is why PASS shod not be used in cases where there is evidence of Domestic violence and abuse in the relationship.

Yanbu

I think it is hugely important what is driving this. It does seem like it is a father’s point of view - and a bitter one.

I do not doubt that parental alienation exists, and that this is damaging. However I see when I googled this that there is a worrying and very prominent use of this phrase by male campaign groups who are very aggressive and seem to minimize any responsibility in father’s in ensuring that they are respectful and decent too. In short, I do think many men use this to get back at women who they have physically or emotionally abused and are distancing themselves and their kids for a good and healthy reason.

My Ex is slagging me off to our child and I never do this, yet because I moved away to have family support he accuses me of alienating his son. He’s actually a nasty abusive asshole - and if he’s the sort of person to be helped by this and cafcass then god help us really.

If they are going to better protect children they need to ensure that parents are carrying out their responsibilities - not ‘rights’. Only children have rights in my view. The right to:

• be parented responsibly and with their best interests at heart
• have neither parent be abusive to the other
• have low conflict and respectful parents towards each other
• if one parent is high conflict or abusive either to them or the other parent, it is better that parent backs off to allow a healthy relationship for the child to flourish with the non abusive parent. Children do not do well within conflict.
• to have a stable home, financial resources and nurture for them physically and mentally.

Absolutely agree with your point about “rights” EndofSummer

My experience of the court system left me really frustrated how “invisible” the children were in the whole process. It was just a big thing about what my Ex wanted; banging on and on about what he wanted. The children had no voice. I tried to be their voice but that was just frowned on. their ages (v young)/needs/wants and his behaviour (v aggressive /abusive towards me and about me) were barely noted. My then 4 year old was mentioned occasionally, but lots of assumptions were made. My tiny just-turned one year old was never mentioned at all; the fact she had never been away more than one night at a time was irrelevant; dad “wanted” a week away and that seemed to be all that was relevant. I never tried to block or even reduce contact, just make it happen in a way that was best for the children, but dads “wants” came first.

Agree never
It’s my worry about the parent alienation lobby - fathers banging the table about being denied access and saying their mothers are bitches for turning a child against them as they have rights to their child...

I do think neither parent has rights to their child. It’s not automatically in the child’s best interest to have a father in their lives. It’s not automatically on the child’s best interest to have their mother. Its in a child’s best interests to have the best, most loving stable and fair parent/s or guardians who will nurture them.

Sometimes the best way that can be achieved, imho, is by the non resident parent, often the father, showing his child a good role model by respecting his mother, not slagging her off, if she’s a good enough parent then supporting her to do this financially and emotionally. I believe that helps a child have healthy relationships going forward into the future.

In response to PP the bias against women in such instances is a reaction to the bias in favour of women in determining custody. Women can abuse their children too. I would know

Courts don’t tend to be biased towards mothers, they tend to be biased towards primary carers which due to the way lots of fathers tend to manage their lives tends to mean the primary carer is often the mother.

There needs to be consistency and better checks and measures in place for parental alienation whether the parent is Dad or Mum. It doesn't need to be gender specific. It's a simple series of tests such as willingness of parent to allow children to be interviewed, school visited and overall cooperation with the court system that would uncover those that are genuinely interested in the welfare of their children versus pursuing their own ends and denying their kids access to both of their parents. THere also needs to be better clarity and explanation from Cafcass and the court system as a whole so that parents can understand what is happening and the order and processes involved. Alot of anxiety and upset is created by poor information or no information being relayed or reports not issued until just a few hours before the court hearing. This leaves no time for either respondant to prepare adequately for court so that the judge is privvy to the full picture from the parents as well as the professionals.

I find this very worrying. So far no-one has listened to my abusive ExH but he regularly tells DS that it is all mummy's fault that he hardly ever sees him (every other WE and I try for 50:50 spilt for holidays). He also has reported me to social services for I have no idea what and thankfully I have not had anyone turn up but it was a scary thought that I might have to prove myself innocent regarding some allegation he may have made. He has also reported me for trying to stop contact but the only times I have not let DS go to see him is during the holidays when he has refused to confirm/agree a time to bring him home again. He is a very good liar and can be very believable... frightening

it raises the stakes for any abusive spouse, not just male ones.

My exSIL was the abusive one in their relationship, physically and emotionally, and when my DB finally plucked up the courage to leave her, she then made her level best attempt to cut him off from the children.

Any RP that tries to stop contact with a NRP for selfish reasons ought to have consequences.