Elsie Scully-Hicks

[Elephantgrey]

How can you understand how someone can harm such a tiny baby. My husband knew Matthew Scully-Hicks and said you would never imagine he would be the sort of person to do something like this. When we first heard about it we imagined that he had just snapped but seeing the news report he inflicted so many injuries on her since the day she arrived. It's just heartbreaking.

Thank you for the flowers Battleax. for you.

One thought that has struck me is that if people are saying he was always so 'nice, charming, loving' etc but also showed the kind of tendency toward violent language in the shouting heard/text messages sent (and also apparently behaviour behind closed doors) then it could be that he psycho/sociopathic.

He has had psychiatric evaluation. He's 'normal'.

The second social services have cause to believe even a single injury was caused non-accidentally, they will (or should) take action. Usually this will be removal under an interim care order pending further investigation. Or at least, it used to be a few years ago when I still did child protection proceedings.

The name issue is irrelevant. They were entitled to change it for any reason they chose because they adopted her, and she became their daughter.

I feel for the Grandmother, who put herself forward to care for this ooor girl and was refused. Her impact statement was very moving.

I wonder if he ever wanted children or just fancied the stay at home lifestyle with a wealthy husband and the "image" of the perfect family. Was this poor innocent child an inconvenience?? I was entirely sickened by how well groomed he was turning up to court. I hope he does the decent thing and tops himself the despicable creature. And the other child should be taken away from the other man who failed to protect her.

The name issue is irrelevant. They were entitled to change it for any reason they chose because they adopted her, and she became their daughter.

It's relevant in adoption culture, where it is seen as best to retain the birth name if safe to do so, as part of recognising and embracing a child's origins and birth identity.

She would have known her name at ten months when she was placed. Her adoptive name doesn't sound like her original name at all (not like substituting Ellie for Kelly, for example) so that would have been an extra change for her, a child who had been through much disruption.

A certain amount of reading between the lines is going on about the respective desires and and family ambitions of the two men, their approach to starting a family and how they embraced adoption and parenting. Adoption parenting is different from normal parenting. I wonder whether they both recognised that. What they were "entitled" to do and what was good for Shayla didn't necessarily align. So choices like the name are interesting.

I quite agree Queen, how her other dad didn't realise something was up was quite remarkable those texts were horrible and if my husband send me similar, I would not be happy working away from home for half the week! I hope Shayla / Elsie's brother is being cared for ok, I don't think that his remaining adoptive dad is best placed to be looking after him given what happened but I guess moving him would also cause further damage.

Shame on the neighbours for not reporting this. If I heard a new dad screaming and swearing at a newly adopted toddler I certainly would and I would urge anyone else to do the same!

And fwiw I think that they changed her name because they wanted a oicture perfect family and were not prepared for the realities of adoption. I know many adoptive parents and most have not changed their kids names, it's confusing for the child; as well as snobbery!

I only know a handful of people who have adopted. All have changed the name, and they are the most wonderful parents. I disagree there is any link at all between them wanting to change her name to Elsie, and the fact she was mistreated. I think that’s facile.

There is a wider issue about preventing adoptive parents from changing the name, I feel strongly that for a young child they should be able to, but others will disagree - that’s outside of the scope of this thread I suppose. But linking her murder to her name change, nah.

And also what the fuck was he leaving he to 'cry-it-out' and 'time out' for? This should have been picked up on, it's not recommended practice for traumatised toddlers. And then having the gall the lie about how she got these injuries. Utterly contemptible.

And fwiw I think that they changed her name because they wanted a oicture perfect family and were not prepared for the realities of adoption. I know many adoptive parents and most have not changed their kids names, it's confusing for the child; as well as snobbery!

Exactly.

It's madness that they should even consider leaving her brother with him. If it is because of adoption rights he should give them up out of shame and let that boy have a chance of happiness. Who will be the next gold digger who gets to look after the child whilst he is away at work?

I have to throw in my towel and say that I personally think that Elsie's adoptive brother should be removed from Craig Scully Hicks.
He didn't see anything wrong with Elsie. He had no concerns.
What happens if his son is bullied ( for example) in years to come- he's not going to see the signs is he?? And if the boy gets very depressed? Decides to self harm??
Is there really one of us who have children on here who- much as we love our partner- wouldn't have some sort of alarm bell ringing with the long list of injuries Elsie got ' by accident'? Especially when we were receiving texts of the nature that were being sent? I'm sorry but his parenting skills are pretty shocking in my opinion. And what happens when he gets a new partner? Wil they be vetted??
Adoptive parents are special and wonderful. But this man has failed the most basic and crucial of ' tests' ( sorry, can't think of a better word) which is that HE DIDNT SPOT HIS OWN CHILD WAS BEING BADLY ABUSED AND BEATEN SO BADLY BRUISES TOOK EIGHT WEESK TO GO.
So sorry, no second chances. It's not a game it's a child's life.
It's not a bloody social experiment.
What about the human rights of this little boy??

Yorkshire I agree. For all we know the older child may have witnessed some of the abuse. His other dad does not, sadly, seem like the best person to care for him now, although I know moving him will have its own problems.

I don’t know whether the sibling should be taken into care but it’s obviously not an easy decision to uproot the child from their dad and move them elsewhere when they have lost their parent and sister and also witnessed violence against Elsie.

For those who think the child should definitely be taken away would you think the same if the child was a birth child rather than adopted?

Absolutely. The birth status of the older brother should have no bearing. The adopter (sorry i can't say father atm) was away enough that he didn't or wouldn't see anything wrong. Is he going to change his entire career to be more at home with a no doubt even more traumatised child?

If he was biologically the son of either of the two men I would hazard a guess that SS would have removed him already.

If the child had a blood connection and especially if the parent left was his mother then possibly. As it stands the only connection the boy has is that this absent man was complicit or at least negligent in his sisters murder. It's about how the child will feel in 10 years time not about this mans rights.

It's about how the child will feel in 10 years time

Well yes, but also how the child will feel now.

I don’t know enough about Craig and his relationship with the child to have a view one way or the other but I don’t think the potential impact on the child from being removed from the only parent they know and how much that could damage the child (bearing in mind if they were adopted it’s likely they’ve had a difficult past/attachment issues) should be minimised

Lots of misconceptions about adoption here:

• There is not a shortage of adopters for easy to place children
• It is very, very rare for a baby to be ‘given up’ for adoption
• Changing an adopted child’s name significantly is frowned upon in most circumstances; most adopters accept this and understand why
• Those who feel a child ‘needs’ a mother (so gay men shouldn’t be allowed to adopt) should talk to male adopters who’ve been carefully selected to adopt a child who has been abused by a woman (I know two instances of this). Gay adopters are often particularly empathetic as they understand what it feels like to be in a minority, to be different from the norm, just like the feelings adopted children often experience.

Whilst I am in NO WAY condoning this bastard’s despicable behaviour, there is immense pressure on adopted parents to be absolutely perfect, to cope, to be eternally grateful. You are frequently told you must be a ‘super parent’. You fear that the slightest hint things are not actually perfect 24/7 might risk losing your chance to be a parent (in the early days, you are not a true parent; you are a glorified baby sitter constantly being assessed and scrutinised). You can also be very isolated, having no contacts through ante natal classes, feeling out of place atNCB groups, not wanting to listen to delivery and breast feeding discussions or insensitive questions about your precious child’s “real” parents. I was one of the lucky ones who has great support from my family and an on-the-ball HV, but many friends with adopted children have not been so fortunate.There is a lot of emphasis on preparation and training, but post adoption support is minimal. It’s not surprising so many adoptions break down.

I have just read a profile of Mathew on Wales online and he is being passed off as some sort of paragon. Why? The tone of the media coverage has been undeniably different in this case.

I agree I don't know how close the boy is to this man and he may have been the favoured one of the two children. However unless he is very close best to remove him I would say.

Yes agree with Yorkshire this man has failed the most basic and crucial of ' tests' ( sorry, can't think of a better word) which is that HE DIDNT SPOT HIS OWN CHILD WAS BEING BADLY ABUSED AND BEATEN SO BADLY BRUISES TOOK EIGHT WEESK TO GO.
I don't like how this has been reported at all, when you contrast to how other similar cases have been reported - the other parent (nearly always a woman) is castigated and thrown under the spotlight, 'she must have known' etc., despite no evidence of really disturbing texts being sent as this man sent to his husband

That profile is just bizarre. It's just people talking about how wonderful he is.

I've just read the birth grandmother say they weren't even told about her death until 7 months after it happened! How can that be right? She was having weekly contact up until the adoption and had hoped to care for her.

It's interesting what you say about adoption and it must be very difficult to be scrutinised. I am not close to issues involving children and I accept that I am ignorant ...but do they really seek male only families for children who have been abused by women? Is this sexual abuse or violence? I ask because given the stats I imagine the qeue for lesbian couples must be very long.

Sorry that was for Rufus 27

Greebz I think he’s got off the hook with the media as they don’t really know how to ‘judge’ that kind of family arrangement IFSWIM

I don't understand why the husband wasn't held responsible too. If he had been a woman, he would have been considered complicit until proven otherwise.

I don't understand why the husband wasn't held responsible too. If he had been a woman, he would have been considered complicit until proven otherwise.

Well, maybe it was proven otherwise then?