Catalan referendum

[AllHailTheSunDog]

Can anyone provide some insight into the issues around the "illegal" Catalunya referendum? Thought it was interesting that an SNP MP was there!

Essentially the regional government did not have national approval for holding the referendum. The referendum was held anyway.

Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque Country are the three historic regions of Spain and each have their own language, culture, identity and regional government. In differing ways but shared determination all three would like independence.

For British purposes the stances taken by each mirror UK regions as follows- Basque Country as Northern Ireland, Catalonia as Scotland and Galicia as Wales!

Well it's basically a similar story to that of Scotlan'd's, hence her affinity for the Catalonians. A region which has been subsumed historically into its larger neighbour but still feels very distinct in its traditions and also this case in its language.

Close to France and shares some cultural and linguistic ties.

Under Franco the drive for Catalonian independence was brutally suppressed but post Franco it's been revived.

I think it's a bad move on the part of the Spanish government to go into schools and take ballot boxes, and shut down the voting app. They'll just be seen as more draconian and Franco-like.

Agree that the measures taken are far too reminiscent of the fascist oppression endured by all three regions.

I agree with what the first two posters have written, OP. I would only add that while Catalonia does not have the legal right to hold a referendum without national approval, the Catalan government has said they consider it legal; therefore, if the vote is for independence, they'll want to start separation proceedings. It'd be (perhaps) slightly less fraught if the Catalans treated the referendum as more advisory than legally binding. Although, I doubt the Spanish government would let the vote go forward anyway, as they are Conservative (PP) in a rather weak minority situation. Rajoy has to play the strongman.

The whole situation is a mess. I've family and friends in Barcelona who are not having a great time of it right now.

Basically the Spanish have gone back to dictator Francos laws and are suppressing democracy in Catalonia.

Whilst it can easily be argued that the referendum doesnt mean much in terms of the legality of the outcome there is this growing belief that what the people vote for, the people should get. See Brexit as the recent example. Ergo, the Spanish dont want people making decisions about their future. So if you are doing the democracy thing in Catalonia at the moment you can get arrested.

The SNP (and Scottish Greens and Scottish Socialists) are there because of the links built up between the independence movement there and the independence movement in Scotland in 2014 (and before and since).

The SNP (and Scottish Greens and Scottish Socialists) are there because its another tax payer funded jolly

And you can prove that?

Merely infer it

The Catalan independence groups have been very supportive of the Yes campaign in Scotland - this is directly reciprocal.

Thanks all, you've given me the basics - I'm catching up on the other threads now.

The news pictures of the repression are pretty terrible

I'm told Art.7 requires that the EU suspend any member state using military force against its own citizens. Do we think rubber bullets count?

The videos of ordinary people with their hands up being hit and literally thrown around are upsetting and shocking. This is not the way this situation should be dealt with. It's making things so much worse.

In shocked at what I'm seeing.

Beating people who are trying to vote doesn't sit right with me.

I can't believe there is no international condemnation of this!

I'm told Art.7 requires that the EU suspend any member state using military force against its own citizens. Do we think rubber bullets count?

There's something chilling about ballot boxes being confiscated, through force. The referendum is not legally valid, everyone knows that, but stopping the Catalan people voting through force is an outrage.

If today's events aren't grounds for article 7, then what is? The EU has criticised other countries for exactly this type of oppression.

Am also disgusted with the UK government's (non) response to this. Props to Corbyn - at least he has commented.

It's just such a bad response. Why can't the government say "this is not a referendum but a protest so we shall not be acting on the result. Please protest peacefully" ?

I don't really have an opinion on the independence debate, though I'm aware of the arguments on each side, but the government's reaction doesn't exactly make an outsider believe it is acting fairly or democratically

It appears the SNP observers have been arrested (Twitter).

I don't understand why the Spanish government need to fire on the voters or to attack them or even stop them? Why can't they just dismiss the result as illegal? We're they trying to put people off voting?

I am catalan and very proud of it. I live in the UK. Today my heart is crying for what it has happened in my lovely land 😟. The spanish government has acted like criminals!! They say that they have the law in their side but so did Franco for 40 years.
They won't ever allow a Referendum becsuse they couldn't afford a Yes to Independence as Spain would loose their 2nd richest region in Spain, and then they would be in deep crisis.

Not the Spanish government's finest hour. Shocking.

I feel for Catalan people but if they leave Spain would they be allowed in the EU. Lots of nations who have ''issues with separatism'' (as it would be seen) might not want to let Catalunya in in case it sparked off more of the same in their own countries.

I feel for Catalan people but if they leave Spain would they be allowed in the EU?

No, definitely not. As you say, many countries have issues with separatism.

But there is a whole world out there to trade with. What's worse, is being part of a country, where you are beaten for having the temerity to vote peacably.

The Spanish government has fucked this up beyond my wildest imagination. Seeing young girls being stamped on, dragged by the hair... A pensioner, bleeding from a head-wound whilst surrounded by torn ballot papers.

CeciCC, i am not Catalan, but yesterday was crying in front of TV. It was an absolutely unnecessary and brutal response. The Spanish government should apologise.

The way the Spanish government acted I'm not sure they should be in the EU.

...and I suppose you pay personally for all the resources you need to do your job?

I'm told Art.7 requires that the EU suspend any member state using military force against its own citizens. Do we think rubber bullets count?

Good question - the Met authorised use of rubber bullets in London around once a month in 2011-12; I'm sure it was the fear of the EU that stopped them actually being used...

Seriously, and I 'm unsure if that's what was meant by the post above but I've seen many similar, the very people who want to leave the EU because they think they interefere in domestic affairs are now complaining that they aren't interfering in a domestic affair.