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labour announce they will scrap tuition fees, can they? will it work?

52 replies

user1466690252 · 10/05/2017 15:27

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-scrap-tuition-fees-university-win-general-election-manifesto-2017-jeremy-corbyn-a7727951.html%3Famp

by increasing corporation tax, the say they can create a NES (national education service) this sounds too good to be true? If we are in as much debt as we are told we are how is there enough money for this? although, In theory, If it works than surely noone can disagree it would be a good thing?

OP posts:
caroldecker · 11/05/2017 00:41

Free tuition in Scotland has worsened access for the poor. Free tuition just means the govt limits places available and those tend to go to the better off. Since fees were introduced, caps on places have been reduced.
Fees also reduce useless degrees as students will be less likely to study them.
The reason we do not have enough UK nurses is due to capped places - about twice as many eligible applicants as places. Removing the bursary means more nurses will be trained.

meditrina · 11/05/2017 07:23

Well, now their current manifesto draft has been leaked, perhaps we'll find out more about how they expect all this will work, in context of a wider economic and social programme (renationalising the GPO and the railways)

It's nit the version though, as it's not had formal party approval, but at this stage there surely won't be much changed.

alonsypot · 11/05/2017 07:33

Parents don't have to pay fees. Students do over time, and they haven't been put off so far. If they rise people will still go and just saddle themselves with debt they have no plan to pay off.

It's an absurd "shit! we have no decent manifesto or leader, make sound bites!" policy.

I don't know who the hell to vote for, they're all shit.

JanetBrown2015 · 11/05/2017 08:05

I wouldn't mind not paying fees for my youngest two who are going in September to university but as Labour are unlikely to win it will be irrelevant. I do want every mumsnetter to vote however. It would be good to get a very high turn out.

From today's Financial Times on the leaked Labour document:

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our T&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights.
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.ft.com/content/9e9be30a-35c3-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.ft.com/content/9e9be30a-35c3-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e</a>

"The document has been put together by Andrew Fisher, a “hard left” former PCS official who is now Mr Corbyn’s head of policy. Mr Fisher wrote a book two years ago in which he voiced support for nationalising all banks and — perhaps — all private land. "

So those who own a house might just want to consider hard before voting for Labour as Labour might in due course confiscate it and give to the more deserving poor and allocate you somewhere else.

sluj · 11/05/2017 08:20

**Alonsypot. Actually many parents do end up paying. The tuition fees are a loan but the maintenance loan is assessed on parental income. If the parents joint income is over £25k (or thereabouts) then the student is only allowed to borrow £3800. This does not even cover his rent so we have to top an extra £5k so he can pay the rent and eat. He is on an intensive course which is 9 to 5 and a lot of evening study so a job isn't practical. My DS is on a five year course so this going to cost him and us a fortune. If DS2 goes to university in 2 years time we will be stumping up for him too.

TheNaze73 · 11/05/2017 08:25

He is the gift that keeps on giving...

This increase in corporation tax is going to pay for everything. Clueless chump

alonsypot · 11/05/2017 12:21

sluj, yes but you'd be helping/paying that anyway? (Fees don't come into it do they?)

sluj · 11/05/2017 13:20

I suppose not but parents do end up paying a lot so any help towards their child's ultimate debt would be an atttactive offer.

Not that I think the money adds up on this commitment from JC

caroldecker · 11/05/2017 19:10

The leaked manifesto does not appear to be changing maintenance grants, so basically no change to parent's funding.
Student loans were introduced to top up maintenance grants in 1989 under the Conservatives. Maintenance grants were abandoned by Labour in 1997, when they introduced fees as well.
FWIW, parents would do better to give children a deposit for a property rather than pay off student loans.

JanetBrown2015 · 11/05/2017 19:12

I am doing both - funding the unviersity costs in full and helping with property but people do need to be aware that if your daughter is likely to work part time and be at home most of her life (or your son) or get very low paid work for life after their degree then they do not currently have to pay the loan back.

picklemepopcorn · 11/05/2017 19:25

If labour got in, and turned out to be right that money grows on trees I'd want them to start with absolute basics, rather than all these wild offers of free money for everyone. £10 minimum wage, scrap student loans and nationalise Royal Mail and the railways. Dream on.

Anon213 · 11/05/2017 20:18

So workers on the minimum wage should be expected to pay for the 'more intelligent' liberal elite to get a free university education and spend their lives earning a lot more. Way to stick it to the working class Jeremy Corbyn.

Bejazzled · 11/05/2017 20:22

This is the situation in Scotland, as CarolDecker already suggested above
For all the fanfare surrounding Scotland’s free university tuition, what is less known is that such tuition has been paid by cutting student grants to the poorest students and slashing 140,000 college places which were principally aimed at underprivileged and mature students. This has resulted in Scotland’s richest students being 3.53 times more likely to enter university than the poorest ones. According to the policy analyst Lucy Hunter Blackburn, SNP policy has resulted in a £20 million transfer from disadvantaged students to middle-class ones. Students from households earning less than £34,000 now graduate with between £4,000 to £5,000 more debt than those from families earning more. Scotland today is the worst place in the UK to be a student from a disadvantaged background. Article by Dr Azeem Ibrahim, he is the Executive Chair of the Scotland Institute think tank

cdtaylornats · 11/05/2017 21:00

The way free tuition in Scotland works is it reduces places for Scots because the universities need foreign students because they bring in money.

Absy · 11/05/2017 21:10

It's a nice to have, but I'm not sure how financially feasible it is (surely money would be better spent on basic services like NHS and primary education). I like a lot of what they're proposing (e.g. like nationalising the railways - my word that would be awesome. If you compare the UK services to state run countries like France, its rubbish, expensive and badly managed - southern) but I don't think their funding suggestions are realistic. I would also be more supportive if the increased taxes on higher earners included MP salaries (which are mysteriously below the 80k threshold...)

I started university just after tuition fees came in and it was tough (fortunately I managed to get a bursary to cover them) but was lucky compared to the poor kids shelling out £9k a year here. There are other ways to lessen the burden. For eg at some South African universities you get discounts on fees depending on how good your marks are (at entry and throughout your degree). My cousin got ridiculous results at matrix (like a levels), like 9 a+s (when normally you do six subjects) so she got massive discounts.
Or - a graduate tax which helps fund new students, and acknowledges the increased earning potential that a degree gives you
Or - reduced fees for fields where the UK has a need (like nurses mentioned above). Also science and other degrees, to encourage people to study them

caroldecker · 11/05/2017 23:36

Absy How are loan repayments based on income any different from a progressive graduate tax?

Ethelswith · 12/05/2017 07:43

That's interesting Bejazzled

I am likely to pay for DC's uni education upfront.

Because it's clear there can be extensive changes to T&Cs of these loans, and I just can't see that there is any way to afford to reintroduce even a partial maintenance grant, even if tuition fees go.

alonsypot · 12/05/2017 08:14

I know it's none of my business, but if I were you I'd just pledge to give them a lump sum at the end of their studies ethel and say it can go either to paying fees off or a house deposit, let them choose.

Chances are they'll never even notice the monthly deductions from pay checks and it won't add up to the full fees anyway over time - unless they're high-fliers in which case it won't matter.

user1466690252 · 12/05/2017 08:15

aparently on Tuesdays they will release the costings of how everything will be paid for, which will be independently verified, they asked all parties to do the same. I must admit, I'm pleased theybare putting up a decent fight. I'm not sure they stand a chance, but they seem more organised (if you remove Diane Abbot)

OP posts:
PigletWasPoohsFriend · 12/05/2017 08:19

OP it maybe fully costed. It doesn't mean that those costings aren't pie in the sky or unrealistic though.

user1466690252 · 12/05/2017 08:32

I accept that, but I havn't heard anything from the conservative party about what they will do with the NHS, education or public services. They also haven't stated they won't rise taxes. I havn't heard much from them apart from strong and stable and slagging of labour to be fair. I have been looking, I'm trying to make an informed decision

OP posts:
PigletWasPoohsFriend · 12/05/2017 09:43

No manifestos have been launched yet. It is happening next week.

The reason you know about Labours is because someone inside the party leaked a draft of it.

We don't even know of what is in the leaked document will be on the final cut.

JanetBrown2015 · 12/05/2017 10:15

(We have gone slightly off topic on student fees but I do accept the point that back in my day when only 15% of us went the other 85% or the few of those who paid any tax I should say subsidised those who did althougg you could argue how much more tax graduates pay (I pay loads of tax) more than covered the cost of my no fees. By the way for rent I got virtually nothing - minimum grant £50 a year and my parents at some struggle made it up to the £900 a year "full grant" so it was not a free for all even for we 15% in those days and there were no loans if your parents chose not to make it up to the full grant - you just couldn't go if you had mean but reasonably well off parents.

I thought now the fees are £9250 a year my twins would be some of the few lucky boys in their year (they go in September) who would have a mother (or father) paying all their student costs but in fact lots of boys in their school have parents with the same intention. By the way it does affect you in your 20s. My daughters (with no debt) have applied for mortgages in the last few years and the lenders want to see not just what you spend on meal out, your bank statements, standing orders and all the rest but also your student loan repayments and it affects your mortgage ability).

scaryteacher · 12/05/2017 10:47

Ds also has no uni loans, as I didn't like the variability of the Ts&Cs. If I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, and we can afford to put ds through, then that's a sensible option for us, and there are no IHT implications either.

Littlepleasures · 12/05/2017 16:36

When policies change there are always some who lose out retrospectively but that's life. I'm still reeling that I've been screwed out of £56000 by my retirement age changing from 60'to 67 overnight.

Both my kids have huge student loans but I would still support restoring free uni tuition. I'm going to be very controversial here but in the days of free tuition there was a much more stringent admissions policy. You had to have a certain level of academic ability to be considered whereas nowadays with the free market and every place of study calling itself a university anyone who can pay and scrape some sort of pass at a level can go to uni.

This sounds good in principle but in practice a university degree has been seriously devalued with some people at uni totally wasting their time, finding it hard to find work where if they had left school at 16 and gone into an employer based scheme more suited to their more practical talents they would be more fulfilled and successful.

As a labour voter, I look back in horror at Tony Blair's Education for all manifesto. Everyone has got different strengths, some practical, some academic and at 16 most people work out which of those two routes are best for them. An academic education is not the only form of education. Instead of providing more pathways for the more practical of us, successive governments have encouraged this wholly inappropriate expansion of university education to cover up their inability to provide high quality apprenticeship options. It's very obvious to teachers which children thrive in an academic environment and which need a more practical skills based curriculum to shine. There's nothing worse as a teacher seeing a bright, creative child lose belief in themselves as they're only assessed on what they can achieve academically.

Bring back free tuition fees but widen the options for which it can be used, so society reaps the benefits of a more usefully educated graduate whether that be of an apprenticeship, or traineeship scheme or a university.
Reading Alan Bennett's memoirs recently, I was struck by his awareness of and gratitude for the fact it was free education for all that enabled him, from a typical working class family, to go to university and become the success he is today. Many famous people in their 70s and 80s had similar working class backgrounds. Certainly many of my family have moved from poor working class manual workers in the 50s to upper middle class, wealthy, solely due to the free education for all in the 50s and 60s. My cousins were able to be privately educated so rapid was the rise but I hope they haven't forgotten how they got there and vote for policies which deprive others of those rights.

On Question Time last night it was being argued that 1% more children from poor backgrounds have gone to uni in England under student loans than in Scotland where fees are paid.

As a teacher, I can tell you, the reason some bright children from poor families don't go to uni has got little to do with whether fees are paid or not paid. It's more to do with life experience and aspiration. Some of the brightest children in primary are worn down by abusive family lives and are totally alienated from education by the time they get to secondary school

. The Tory government a few years ago funded an initiative in schools where these children were identified and money provided for a year to provide academic tuition, more one to one time with the teacher and opportunity for more trips to widen their experiences. As a teacher I did my best for these kids during that year of extra funding, but to be honest, we teachers always try our best for these kids but school is not the place to fix social deprivation. Government investment in the wider society these children live in is the only way. Better housing, support for mental health and disability, opportunities to work through state funded childcare, well funded and staffed social services etc all the things this government is cutting to save the fortunate in society paying higher taxes.

You could have the best schooling in the world, but if you have to go home everyday to a cold, smelly house where your parent is lying in bed catatonic with depression and you're not sure if there's going to be anything for tea that night and you're too ashamed to have friends round, sometimes worried to go to school in case something happens to your parent while you're out concentrating in school is not going to happen.You tell no one because you don't want to be taken away from your parent who you love very much. Even if your teachers realise what is happening all they can do, apart from making sure you have something to eat when you get to school and something to take home with you, often out of the teacher's own pocket, is inform social services which are so underfunded that your needs may come too low on the prioritising of need that social workers are forced to carry out so squeezed are they at the moment.

Free tuition fees are essential to allow access to education for all but investment in social services must happen too for it to be a level playing field.

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