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Incest - Right Or Wrong?

149 replies

suedonim · 07/03/2007 10:29

I was quite intrigued to read this story about two siblings in Germany who are seeking to overturn the laws on incest. Are their civil rights being breached or is the law there for a good reason?

OP posts:
Blandmum · 08/03/2007 18:20

Blu you are very kind but if that were really true I wouldn't have spent 70 minutes frothing at the mouth and being left in a state of near collapse at the thought that year 13 kids cant take a number away from 1!

Booboobedoo · 08/03/2007 18:35

I feel sorry for the couple, but can see why the German Authorities want to make an example of them (for the reasons outlined by madamez below: protecting rape victims etc).

Isn't haemophilia called 'the royal disease' because it spread through royal inbreeding in the UK?

Pruni · 08/03/2007 18:38

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peanutbutterkid · 08/03/2007 18:39

Steve Jones (the geneticist) lays out a really compelling argument why haemophilia arose spontaneiously in the testicles of Queen Victoria's father (sorry if that sounds like tmi!), a mutation not manifesting itself until some of Victoria's daughters had sons. Not actually a good example of disease arising from inbreeding, though I imagine Prince Charles' ears are....

Blandmum · 08/03/2007 18:40

It is a recessive condition that is present on the X chromosome. So women are carriers and their sons have a 50/50 chance of having the disease. Their dds have a 50/50 chance of being a carrier themselves
Queen victoria was a carrier and it was spread through the royal families of Europe.

It wasn't the inbreeding that was so much of an issue, since you never get people with two haemophia genes, the females die in utero, and the males can't because they have 1 X and one Y chromosome.

It was , however very well studied, since the pedegree was known of all the royals, and they could afford medical care.

There are different forms of haemophilia btw, but the royals had the 'classic' factor 8 defficient version.

Girls can get some of the 'milder' versions like Von Willebrands

CAMdenPalace1981 · 08/03/2007 18:40

The rules of exogamy (the women marrying out of the tribe)and kinship are one of the bases of anthropology

Tamum · 08/03/2007 18:46

Pruni, I know you're right- I am sure I read a paper on that in Nature a while back. Well, the abstract, anyway.

Mb, that was a tour de force

Blandmum · 08/03/2007 18:47

Just taught it to the upper sixth.

I love teaching the genetic option

Dihybrid cross and linkage next!

madamez · 08/03/2007 23:43

Going back a ways: the reason it's not unheard of for people to start a sexual relationship with long-lost and recently-traced blood relations is because the type of relationship prioritized in present-day culture is the couple (romance'n'sex), which gets treated with the type of respect that was formerly given to an individual's relationship with imaginary deities and/or parents. So when someone meets a person with whom they feel this "special" connection, the only way they feel able to interpret it is in terms of "true love". Given that some people get as illogically gloopy-eyed and sentimental about their genetic connections as they do about sexual desire (unable to come up with any sensible, factual reasons for what they want to do, they fall back on mystical stuff or wishful thinking) you can get this concept that people of very close genetic linkage are somehow destined to be perfect for each other... etc

Aloha · 08/03/2007 23:50

Totally disagree with Sophable that the incest taboo is there because we all want to shag our siblings. All the studies are against that. For example, in societies where children are betrothed as infants and the girl comes to be brought up in the family of her future husband, the marriages produce far fewer children than those where the partners meet at adolescence or later. It is actually natural NOT to feel desire for anyone who is brought up with you as a sibling. To feel desire is very unusual. The taboo - and the natural lack of desire - are both there to protect the gene pool. The German couple are typical in that they weren't brought up together (and in fact suffered considerably during their childhoods in other families) so the natural taboo doesn't work for them.

Aloha · 08/03/2007 23:56

It's called the Westermarck effect - the sexual aversion between people brought up as siblings.

Aloha · 09/03/2007 00:07

Another study saying the same thing in more detail from Nature here

The longer you live together and the more you see your mother caring for the other child, the less you fancy them and the more repulsive you find the idea of incest.

Aloha · 09/03/2007 00:15

Oh, and this also discusses that study, and also suggests an interesting explanation as to why Freud was so keen to suggest that incestuous desires are normal and indeed universale
here

harpsichordcarrier · 09/03/2007 00:16

thing is though Aloha, incest is really very common, notwithstanding the very strong taboos, and cultural penalties, which suggests there might be something in the Freudian explanations

Aloha · 09/03/2007 00:17

Sibling incest is not common at all. Sexual aversion is common.

Aloha · 09/03/2007 00:17

Freud was a loony!

yellowrose · 09/03/2007 08:27

Aloha - agree that Freud was a loon - one of my favourite quotes is this: "Even Freud would admit that sometimes a cigar is JUST a cigar"

Bloody Freud and his phallic objects

Also agree re. incest not being COMMON. It isn't common in any society today, not even primitive ones. Marriage to a cousin is NOT incest.

I have to admit to fancying (ok, even I am not stupid enough to marry them !!) several of my male cousins who are tall, dark haired, drop dead gorgeous. We hadn't seen each other since we were kids as they live abroad. It is an indication to me personally that if you are not brought up with your own blood line, you CAN get into trouble, i.e. this poor German couple.

Nockney · 09/03/2007 08:46

Occasional first-cousin marriages aren't a big deal, from what I know, it's just making a habit of them that poses a problem.

And no, incest really isn't common. Think of the most famous mythical example - Oedipus only married his mother because she hadn't raised him, he didn't know she was his mother, and hence didn't have the natural aversion to her.

harpsichordcarrier · 09/03/2007 09:17

erm, I would really have to disagree with you about incest, not necessarily sibling but other sorts of sexual activity between family members is not in the least uncommon.

FioFio · 09/03/2007 09:22

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zippitippitoes · 09/03/2007 09:22

incest as a choice of relationship is uncommon as it is naturally abhorrent

sexual abuse which involves incest and centres on power and sexual gratification is different

yellowrose · 09/03/2007 09:24

"sexual abuse which involves incest and centres on power and sexual gratification is different"

Yes, spot on. MOST people would not choose incest as their prime sexual activity.

yellowrose · 09/03/2007 09:26

Fio - what was the relationshp between their parents ? Siblings or cousins ?

Eleusis · 09/03/2007 09:39

Anyone remember the x-files episode about the incest family? eek. (is that better than "yuk"?)

FioFio · 09/03/2007 09:41

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