Is this a legal technicality or a moral issue?

[musica]

Look at this providing the link works!

I think my reaction was based on SoapBox's reply, that they might be adopted, which seemed slightly unseemly.
I understand more fully now what the situation is that they mean in the article having seen the news etc..
I think they are now saying that a baby born after a failed late abortion and born alive, should be given the same life saving treatment that any baby born at that gestation would be given. Whereas now they are left to die.
The whole subject is being reported so clinically, but I cannot distance myself from the emotions of being involved in such a choice and the pending trauma afterwards...
Very difficult to decide although I would say a moral issue, but in reality I find it impossible to judge someone, having not walked in their shoes. But the thought of social abortion as someone earlier described it, at that late stage really pains me, despite my pro choice views. Why should a baby be disposable at 12 weeks but not at 24? I do not know either, am still working that one out in my head... The ethics of either I guess are the same but not...
Hard to express the thoughts articulately today, apologies...

eddm- I don't think Joanna Jephson forced an investigation onto the woman- she forced it onto the doctors. Which is slightly different. Agree that cleft palate can be an indication of something much more serious- but in this case it did appear that the cleft palate was the sole reason for the termination- and that it wasn't a complicated (into the braincase) type cleft palate. I think Joanna Jephson's point was that the interpretation of "severe disability" needs to be written into law- or at least clarified- and I would agree with her there. I think we do need to clarify under what conditions late terminations (up to birth!) are acceptable.

Think I feel very much like you about all this Piffle- rather confused!

I'm very, extremely pro-life, but don't vote that way and do understand (although don't agree with) the other side.

Infanticide is something different. As well is should be. There's no excuse for a doctor to treat a baby who was meant to have been aborted as any other.

I'm pretty sure that I read that the police had interviewed the woman in the Jephson case, because it was impossible to investigate without involving her. I find it hard to sympathise with her decision if it was as minor a defect as it sounded, but I agree with eddm that the way the case was turned into something so personal was pretty awful. I wouldn't really want her as my vicar .

On the other hand, I'm with frogs- can't see how it is really possible to make any kind of moral distinction between infanticide and late abortions of this sort.

I seem to have agreed with just about everyone, which just goes to show what a confusing set of issues this raises.

I suppose if it did happen - and it was a simple cleft palate - then there had to be an investigation really- unfortunate that it was plastered all over the media though. Has anything come of this case? Are guidelines/law as to what constitutes "severe disability" going to be re-examined.

I think it would be entirely possible to feel very sorry for the woman concerned- even if it was just a simple cledft palate. She may have been terrified- and not receieved any sensible counselling- she may have been under strong family pressure- in that case I think it's especially important that there are very strong guidelines. I do think this would be difficult to legislate though as antenatal tests will nearly always involve guesswork. Even if you have a karyotype showing that your baby has Down's that doesn't actually tell you how disabled the child you are carrying will be.

Have to say that I find this new story so disturbing. I read about it in the Metro magazine on the tram yesterday and was horrified to think of babies being simply left to die I really can' say much more on it, as feel sickened at the idea

As for the cleft palatte issue. Hmmm, my brother was born with cleft palatte and hare lip. He is now 30, a very successful software engineer, living a full life. Yes he had several operation in very young childhood, a very painful one as a late teenager - but for him to have been denied existence?????? I can't comment on this more again - I would be afraid of what I could say on the matter, and would risk offending other people's views. I haven't even dared mention to this story to my parents - I have no idea how my mum would feel over this, but can imagine. Needless to say again I am horrified at the thought.

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ggglimpopo - what a sad story about that couple treating their son as handicapped for having talipes, and makes me shudder to think the sort of messages they have been giving out to their son about his talipes. It's obviously not nice for a kid to have to have casts/ops etc, but it is not the end of the world! It is so sad that people have that attitude towards talipes even in this day and age - with good early treatment there is so much that can be done to help this condition.

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That's terrible ggglimpopo

I was in school with a girl who had been affected by Thalidomide. She had some major problems, it had affected her hands and one of her legs needed a brace. She was as sharp as could be but never reached anything like her full potential because her family treated her as 'handicapped' and I'm sorry to say , a source of income.......I know this is awful but it is true. They would take her to the local benefits office and would leave her on the counter and walk out until the staff agreed to their demands.

Her family were her disability. The complete oppsity of the families who post on mumsnet.

God I think this whole thing is so hard to grasp or say one thing either way.

I have seen someone go through (been holding their hand) the fatal injection into the womb it is the hardest thing I have ever had to do and I think maybe due to the circumstances that things occassionally go wrong or are rushed for the sake of the mother who is going through the most hideous experience - then knowing that they have to carry that baby for another few days as they are actually left to give birth after being given a drug to induce labour - but its all so hard, what do you do - force the woman to go through the rest of her pregnancy knowing that at the end of it she is just going to have to watch her new born die?

And as for the baies that are given help after birth because they are wanted, why no tthe ones that aren't wanted - ooohhh I know I'm not making much sense here but I don't think there is a right answer to this?

But at the back of my mind I do think that you become very insular when something like this happens to you - when you are told that the life you are carrying may not be viable and who the hell has the right to judge you at that moment or make a decision as to what should happen to YOUR child??

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Someone in my department had what was meant to be her 12-week scan just over a week ago (she had questioned the date as she felt she was further along) and found out the baby had a severe condition requiring termination (I don't know the details). She had the termination last week - the baby was around 19 weeks and was alive when born / terminated. I can't imagine how awful that must have been. Sorry, this is a really sad story.

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Agree with ggglimpopo that the general assumption that you will have all the tests is very much based on the (generally unspoken) assumption that you will have a termination if major abnormalities are detected.

I had no tests other than basic scans with all my pregnancies. This seems a pretty reasonable position to take if you feel (as I do) that you wouldn't consider a termination at all, but I encountered a lot of negative feedback, ranging from suggestions that I was somehow being selfish, irresponsible or very brave (come again?) right up to, 'You must want a baby very much if you don't mind whether it's handicapped' (this latter from a midwife btw).

There aren't in fact any conditions "requiring termination", although there are conditions which are incompatible wiith life. I posted a while back about my nephew who was born with a fatal genetic condition and who lived for six short weeks before dying peacefully with all his family around him.

I know many other people in my sister's position would have chosen to terminate when they found out the diagnosis after the 20-week scan, but I don't really see why it is generally considered that having a fatal injection and induced labour at 24 weeks is necessarily easier, either emotionally or physically, than letting the baby go to term and dying in its own time.

Frogs my sister's baby had anenchephaly and would have lived for a few short hours and fitted for most of those - to me that is something that requires a termination - as well as having to think about the mental health of the mother as she carries that baby for the remaining 17 weeks of her pregnancy knowing that her child is going to die very soon after birth!!

And to me you are very brave - I had CVS with both of my pregnancies and would have terminated if it meant the child living for a short period of time but not if there had been Downs or some such other syndrome present - to me I did not have the courage not to know though!!

I have been really moved by some of the posts on here-

jesus ggglimp!! How utterly bizarre. My friend's ds was born with talipes- and no-one considered him "handicapped".

BTW dinosaur- I think her experience was very similar to yours- suddenly she was given all these syndromes it could be, She refused further testing (except scans) and came under enormous pressure. I agree that there is often an assumption that you will terminate for certain disabilities. A friend came under enormous pressure to terminate her child with DS (had to cancel the theatre 3 times).

Dinosaur- although I understand why they do it- I also think its a shame that as soon as talipes is picked up people start talking about syndromes etc - the old worst case scenario again- when the vast majority of cases must be "just" talipes. I don;t know anyone who has had a baby with edward's but several who have had a baby with talipes, and cleft palate (not in the same baby!)- but conditions which can be associated with syndromes.

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