In The Times today: Blind feminism has hurt our children

[twelveyeargap]

Blind feminism has hurt our children

And how is it getting off the point if someone achieved a goal of enriching themselves by becoming a celebrity, entertainer, footballer's wife, model, etc. v. working till all hours and sleeping 3 hours a night?

Sounds like envy to me.

personal happiness is probably found for more women through having an enjoyable 40 year career than 40 years scrubbing the kitchen floors but that's just my view. Each to their own.

The Government doesn't make both parents work. The greed and materialism of most married couples makes that so. People live on an income of £20k with the other person not working all over the country. Anyone who thinks they have to both work needs to spend more time in church.

I like doing housework. I really do. I get a lot of satisfaction from it. More than I've ever gotten from a job.

We both have to work for £20,000, but I see where you're coming from.

'If you as a woman think it really is best for a mother to be there most of the time with under 5s you are wrong to suggest to a girl that she should do otherwise. You can't have it both ways. You either believe it or you don't. If you're not sure then of course you might present both views.'

If my dd decides to stay at home I will be very proud of her. I want to instill in her that she can do whatever she wants to do. If she wants to be President great. If she wants to stay at home and look after her kids and Dh I think that would be wonderful.
You seem to suggest that we shouldn't want our daughter's to follow in our foot steps. Again you are showing how much the SAHM is undervalued. You don't even think we should encourage our daughters to do it.

" a better society would allow BOTH parents much more time to look after their children." said wise Aloha 90 yrs ago near the OP.

I think we're all agreed on that. I agree that it shouldn't be a my-way-is-better-than-yours rant. It only gets like that because people stamp all over one another's lifestyle choices, then get defensive about their own.

Some people do have to work f/t and their children have great daycare. In some parts of the country it does take 2 wages to pay basic bills. Other people have had bad daycare experiences and have decided to work p/t or SAH. I've borrowed money from my own future to do a bit of both. It's not a prescription and it's not a condemnation. It's an explanation of what I've done and why. Some of the things I've tried haven't worked - that doesn't mean they won't work for others.

xenia has extreme views, so she pulls in extreme reactions - that's it in a nutshell.

In a Walnutshell even

Good post Muminfife. I suspect it will fall on deaf ears, as the other set of shackles is supposed to be somehow more worthwhile and liberating.

Great phrase though.

great post and from the souns of it great job and parenting muminfife!

"i know i am happier personally working within my family and living my values than i would be working for a faceless corporation - i can see directly the effects of my actions, which works for me."

that is totally how i imagine sahm-dom to be - your own boss!

Sophable, how eactly do I show very little understanding of a child's early years?????

Droile, I'm sorry you're banging your head against the wall but I haven't got 3hours to read this whole post!

Fair enough.

Scotland obviously doesn't have the diverse communities we have in London. There are plenty of examples around here of cultures where women don't work. The way you afford and manage it is living with your husband's parents and usually his brother and wife and family too. It's a structure I would warn my daughters off because you have all those in laws issues and not everyone gets on with their own family.

Presumably most parents accept there may be some "choices" a child might take that are wrong? I wouldn't support them in a life of drug addiction in a squat and we had interesting debates in the past when my sister chose to join a cult. Nor would I support them choosing a religion or marriage to a man who expected them to run around after him like some sort of male domestic god. So yes I'm prepared to say X is right and Y is wrong sometimes. Not just wooly tolerance of choices - sometimes the choices are stupid.

Women's economic dependence on men in my view is often very silly and not in their interests although obviously the stay at home mothers won't agree with me. I also think part time working can give the worst of all worlds in terms of equality at home and working life. So if it's that or full time motherhood the latter may be the better option. If the work you would be doing is minimum wage and really dull then I suppose cleaning at home may be preferable but women have always tried to delegate childcare and housework whether they work or not if they have any sense as years nad years of the tedium of that is usulaly not what they want.

it was the years and years of tedium at work that did for me!

Not everyone can follow a career path of their own choosing. I'd say the vast majority of the workforce work to live not vice versa.

Actually I think Xenia may have a point about the part time thing - although for many people it's the best of all worlds, for many women it may be the worst of all worlds and give them the worst deal in terms of equality in both the workplace and the home.

As more men choose part time work, and flexible working becomes the norm, hopefully that situation will no longer be the case. The reason it can be the worst of all worlds at present, is because it's generally only women who do it. The more men do, the more normal it becomes, the better imo.

Xenia I'm curious. If your daughter meets a nice guy, settles down and gets married and decides to stay at home when they have children you won't support her. Will you be disappointed in her?

I won't be getting her brother to kill her in an honour killing because of the shame she's brought on the family in disobeyign our cultural norms, you might be relieved to know although others in the UK prefer to murder their daughters than let them marry whom they choose and work. Nor will I never speak to her again as some cults and religious groups do where the indoctrination fails and the child marries out.

Yes, I'd prefer the children to have jobs. Having seen so many nasty divorces I think work can be the best protection and anyway my girls know about the tedium of childcare and would expect to have cleaners and nannies I'm sure. It's just how they've been brought up. But even if they had all that support so they didn't dirty their hands and could spend the day honing their body at the gym to their rich husband's requirements like many of the financially leech like in London, Cheshire and elsewhere I would be disappointed and wnat to talk to them about what appeals in that role and whether it's morally and politically justifable. They might make a case and convince me. If they take a few years out from their careers to be at home that's fine. One is taking a gap year. I have no problem with that.

However I love them and like most parents I accept their own choices. I have never overly pressured them. Example is the best thing.

muminfife - "Personally I would prefer a set-up where people could live in close-knit communities"

You are right. Where we have gone wrong in the West (due to what you call the faceless corp. and industrialisation generally) is that we have lost community and the extended family. People move away to work, families are split up for the sake of making money.

In many countries, adult children live with their parents until they get married. Some never move out even after marriage and children. Childcare is done by grandparents, aunts, etc if and when the mother has to go to work. It is a very simple and effective way of living and it means that young children are looked after by blood relatives, not strangers.

It is probably impossible going back to this kind of life in most industrialised countries now.

I grew up with a nanny and a housekeeper. I do have a housekeeper but I still have housework I have to do and I don't have a nanny as I don't find childcare tedious.I certainly don't think its morally wrong to stay at home. You seem to think that SAHM are either fat women who sit at home eating Bon Bons in their jammies or Toxic women who hand their children off to other people to go to the gym or day spa. Thats not really a very realistic picture of a SAHM. I sometimes wonder if you even know any SAHMs as all you spout are stereotypes.

gosh i do sit at home with my son on rainy days watching cbeebies and i eat bon bons (he is never allowed any as i am paranoid about caveties) and i have put on weight - but we are very happy doing it

paula you are right - stereotypes don't help

Xenia "anyway my children know about the tedium of childcare"

Thank you very much for undermining my profession!!!