Govt has to go back to Parliament over Brexit

[whoputthecatout]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785

Well, that's set the cat among the pigeons.

Govt. will appeal but the referendum is only advisory constitutionally so the remainers will be hand-rubbing in glee, sensing an opportunity to thwart the referendum result.

I'm seeing nothing beyond assertions in your posts WW.

Read the ruling then.

. Read it yourself.

The judges did what judges are supposed to do, which is to interpret the law.

Although Cameron's government said they would obey the decision of the people, that was only a political promise, like in a manifesto, not a commitment that they were legally entitled to make.

So, basically yet another Cameron cockup:
our former PM ignored, or was ignorant of, the British Constitution.
He could have avoided all this muddle by specifically writing in the Referendum BIll that it was legally binding (like the AV Referendum was) but he didn't.
In fact, it was stated in a Parliamentary answer at the time of the Bll that it was advisory only.

The constitutional way to activate Article 50 is for Theresa May to gird her ovaries and introduce a simple bill in Parliament to do so.
She can make it a 3-line whip and remind MPs that any who oppose this have to answer to their local Tory or Labour party - who can deselect them - or their voters at the next GE - who can elect someone else.

She can also pass a bill to repeal the Fixed Parliament Act and then call a GE, say in 2018 with the new boundaries.
Corbyn is a once-in-a-lifetime gift to her: she'd get a huge majority - with some MPs deselected - and a mandate to do Brexit her way.

If she really intends Brexit, that's what she'll do.
However, if this whole Brexit exercise was just to keep the Tory Party together but it got out of hand .....

Which bit of the great repeal bill won't be debated by MPs?

Sigh - I did

My understanding of this is that -

Leaving the EU will strip us all of lots of rights we currently have.
The Crown, in the form of TM can not strip the citizens of the country of their rights, only Parliament can vote to do that. Hence, Parliament must vote on this.

Is that basically it?

If this was done without a vote in Parliament, would it then not set a precedent for other things? For example the death penalty? I believe the death penalty has until recently had strong public support, if we had a Gov/PM in favour of the death penalty, they could just have a referendum and bring back the death penalty. Maybe in the small print they would introduce it for the. Donald Trump has said if he's elected president he's going to jail Hilary Clinton, maybe he could have her charged with treason and execute her on this basis, or maybe he could just have a referendum to see if the public want her executed.

Please Leavers, see the bigger picture, this WON'T stop Brexit, the power and unaccountably you want to hand over to a PM is terrifying thought. Or rather, I believe the only way it would stop Brexit would be if TM decided to call a GE and more MPs who said they would vote down Brexit were elected (extremely unlikely imo) and if this were the case they they would be acting on the will of the people.

Maybe in the small print they would introduce it for treason

If that's thekind of 'strong, functioning' government you want weshould never have executed Charles II. - Only our elected MPs elect our PM, a Monarch is not elected, big difference.

There are no plans - Don't understand why people keep saying this, seems pretty straight forward to me, start A50, repeal commmunities Act, negotiate with EU to get a good trade deal. Two years later, Bobs your Uncle, we have democracy back and control of our boarders. I like it when a plan comes together.

If parliament wants to exercise any meaningful control over the exit process, it has to get involved before article 50 is triggered - Lets say parliament passes an act saying the government can only trigger A50 if it agrees to stay in the single market but also that it regains control over its own laws, pays no contribution and controls its own boarders. We trigger A50 and go to the EU... the EU says NO. What do we do then, leave the EU with no deal? The government cannot get a good deal if parliament handcuffs it with impossible conditions and tells the EU that's what they have done.

Leaving the EU will strip us all of lots of rights we currently have
Can you please tell of what these rights are?

Please Leavers, see the bigger picture, this WON'T stop Brexit
Only a lot of sensible people think it possibly WILL, and I have heard several politicians say they will use this to make sure it does stop us leaving the EU.

the power and unaccountably you want to hand over to a PM is terrifying thought
I think giving the PM the power to do the one thing, that a majority of the electorate voted for, ie enact A50 and leave the EU is not a terrifying thought, its project fear all over again.

It was a pro brexit we that took this case to court

We have sovereignty and everyone knew that prior to the vote, therefore his court action is hardly a surprise

Whether you are a remained or leave this was always going to happen to preserve our democracy as it is.

It will probably lead to a GE soon and you can then again make sure you vite carefully for who will represent your wishes

Suppermummy, yes a monarch is not elected. A monarchy is not in any way a democracy. So why are you keen on seeing monarchical powers used instead of parliamentary process? Are you so keen to demolish all semblance of democracy and be processed into the realm of Queen Theresa? Who is, presumably, not to be bound by law?

And yes, Brexit seems simple to you. That is part of the problem. What kind of relationship do you favour with the EU, our biggest trading partner, once Britain has independence? Do you want all trade between us to stop? To continue under current rules? To continue under some compromise? What about that control of borders? Are all the expats living in EU to come back, and where are the houses and jobs for them? What about those EU citizens here? They won't simply vanish because you want to forget them. No one has decided, and that is what is meant by us having no plans. It is not a simple affair at all.

this tells you what the French think....

Do you mean this, ivy?

I really don't get the leaver angst over this. They're all for democracy when it suits but when the legal democratic process is invoked they're outraged?

With matters of law change in this country it has to be debated and voted in parliament. At least this way it can go through the parliamentary process and a plan formed for what the country actually wants when triggering article 50. Theresa May cannot be allowed to decide for herself on the terms of leaving, that's a matter for parliament and rightly so.

I'm a remainer yes but reconciled to the fact our government is going to go ahead with this (albeit with an unelected leader). But that cannot just decide the terms of it themselves without all elected representatives debating and voting on our terms.

I found it interesting that Michael Moore used the Brexit vote to caution Americans against protest voting next week, though.

And actually that was the biggest problem with the referendum to start with - it was too vague.

The irony of this is that it could be taken to a European court to decide if those appealing the judgement didn't agree....

Ivy: we don't have sovereignty now. Or we could have had a commons vote on what we spend taxpayers money on in January instead of having to ask 27 other governments.

Remainers love that irony. They chuckle over it. A bunch of eu judges - yes they'll really represent the people rather than say a direct democratic vote.

ivykaty44 Gina Miller was a remain campaigner before the referendum, so its disingenuous to call her a Brexiter. I think if politicians drag us through another election because they won't carry out the result of the referendum then our low opinion of them will sink even lower. How will any vote ever have meaning again?

BungoWomble Your framing this as monarch versus parliament, I dont see it that way because we had a referendum, the electorate decided and imo that is more democratic than the Queen, the PM, the unelected peers or the MP's.

Once we are independent again I hope and expect we will have a good trading relationship with the EU and I dont see any reason why our government won't arrange that, some details better, some worse but overall the same old same old. Yes I accept their might be a few Mexican stand offs along the way but I believe in the end we all want the best for our own countries and will eventually come to a sensible conclusion. To borrow a Clinton catchphrase, 'hope trumps fear'.

As an independent country again we will control our own boarders. No discussion needed. Expats living in EU will carry on as they are now so that all the Europeans living in the UK can carry on as they are now. In the end after all the bluster it will all be decided in that last few weeks of 2019, and we will all wonder why some people made such a fuss. Your confusing having a plan with having made all the decisions beforehand, which was and is impossible.

The most recent poll suggests that the majority of the British public now support Remaining.

Time for another Referendum, now that so many of the lies that led to the winning vote for Brexit have been exposed and people have begun to realise that the dreadful economic fallout from Brexit wasn't a lie told by Project Fear but a fact told by Project Truth.

Supermummy, ivy did not say Gina Miller was a Brexit supporter. The High Court case was brought by one than one party, and one was Deir Dos Santos, a pro-Brexit supporter, who obviously understands that proper parliamentary process must be followed.

But another referendum needn't be acted on either.

He's a plant

He's a plant
Righty-oh.