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The right-wing is gaining support in Germany

83 replies

Scorpius · 05/09/2016 01:54

According to the exit polls today. Merkel looks certain to lose her previously-safe seat too.

Is there more to this than immigration? Or is it a straight-forward rebellion against her open-door policy?

OP posts:
TheHubblesWindscreenWipers · 06/09/2016 16:30

I agree with pausing flatly

Was is Milton Friedman who said you can have an welfare state or open borders, but not both? (Never thought I'd ever agree with him... Hey ho.)

I lived with a girl who'd fled Sarajevo during the war once. We talked at length about the various traumas she and her family faced but what stood out to me was her horror as people they thought were neighbours, colleagues and friends turned on each other and killed each other. Think how recent that was - 1990s, in a modern city. If we think it can't happen in other cities in Europe we are kidding ourselves. She basically said she could never trust anyone or anything again. Her whole vision of the stability of her modern, urban society had been shattered.

I think the mass movement of people has been encouraged by business in order to drive down wages and conditions. No doubt various commercial interests will profit from war, or refugee detente entries (Sodexo and the other 'service provider' Giants.)

PausingFlatly · 06/09/2016 17:29

Thanks for that link, Fester.

I've certainly never seen this posed as "a dilemma for progressives" before (clearly that's just me, since you have): the paper seems to be about good old People Like Us syndrome.

(In general, people tend to favour People Like Us: they help out PLU, appoint PLU to jobs - which is why men appoint men - and so on.)

IIUC on a quick read, the authors are discussing willingness to pay taxes in the context of ethnicity and of benefitting PLU. They note that people have multiple self-identities, and this paper studies citizenship, religion, language and ethnicity (so not class, gender, level of education, etc).

IIUC they say it's a struggle to separate out what is the effect of race, and what of racism. Ie people are less likely to pay taxes if they perceive themselves less likely to benefit from them; so where state spending is seen as benefitting one ethnic group over another, the disadvantaged group is less keen to pay taxes.

They also describe a number of examples where highly ethnically diverse countries such as India are very willing to pay taxes.

Mostly the paper attempts to be descriptive.

Its conclusion attempts to recommend:

"It suggests that policy makers stress similarities among taxpayers and their common needs in order to improve voluntary tax compliance, e.g., we all use the roads, all our children need to be educated, we all face concerns around retirement, unemployment can happen to anyone. The common identity theory (Gaertner et al. 1993, and Gaertner 2000) in psychology suggests that if members of different groups can conceive of themselves as a common group, they will have a lower level of intergroup biases. They will think of themselves as having a common interest, facing some common goal, and sharing a common fate. Subsequently, the shared collective identity can help reduce social loafing.

"Moreover, the empirical findings of this paper highlight the considerable promise of nourishing citizenship identity. They suggest that tax authorities consider investing in motivational capital to complement conventional tax enforcement strategies of deterrence and material incentives. Since taxpayers who assume a salient citizen identity have stronger intrinsic motivation to comply with tax laws, authorities may promote the spirit of citizenship – a consensual understanding of shared goals and common values. This implication is especially helpful for ethnically fragmented countries where a strong sense of citizenship is related to increased tax morale."

PausingFlatly · 06/09/2016 17:52

Actually, knowing what South Africa was like, and knowing a little of the religion-based issues with gerrymandering, housing and jobs in N Ireland's history, it wouldn't surprise me at all if explicit statements of "You can't expect Us to pay for Them" were common in NI's past too.

Whatever the past, I hope that isn't part of NI today.

IMHO, it's not a condition for any nation to aspire to.

FesterAddams · 06/09/2016 21:12

the paper seems to be about good old People Like Us syndrome

Yes, PLU is exactly what it is. But IMO the paper focusses too much on both ethnicity and tax compliance (well, it is written by Americans). I liked the Guardian comment piece because it spelled out the dilemma angle more clearly.

Tanith · 07/09/2016 15:02

Nothing at all left wing about Hitler, HumidSeptember Hmm

Feminazi · 08/09/2016 00:07

I really wish the left wing would get more realistic. They are going to sink quickly otherwise! Sad

mimishimmi · 08/09/2016 00:17

To be honest, I am far more frightened of right-wing rapists with authority than new arrivals. They only see the bad in others because that's all there is in themselves. They did far more damage to our society before mass immigration which is why our birthrates plummeted. They hate my people (Irish) just as much as non- European immigrants. They hate everyone and unscrupulous billionaires foment the situation to make even more from the arms sales.

RedforDanger · 08/09/2016 08:28

Nothing at all left wing about Hitler, HumidSeptember

Not sure Adolf would agree with you

itsnobody.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/the-nazi-party-a-left-wing-liberal-movement/

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions”

– Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speech on May 1, 1927. Cited in: Toland, John (1992). Adolf Hitler. Anchor Books. pp. 224–225. ISBN 0385037244.

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