"Young muslims want Sharia law in the UK" - Today's telegraph

[hecciesmum]

I can't help but wonder when I read these kind of scare tactic articles .....is this 40% of all young british muslims, or 40% of young british muslim men? Why do young men seem so much angrier than young women - or arn't they?

is it just me that thinks that if women were in charge the world would be a much more peaceful place?? We reason through problems - men just want to have a good fight to sort it out - be that verbally or physically.

Ok - have probably opened up a can of worms, but....Discuss!?

Hecsmum

front page of www.telegraph.co.uk.......sorry - am crap at doing links

[speedymama]

BTW, I don't dislike Islam, I just believe in challenging concepts, beliefs, that are deemed to be immutable with time.

I do the same with Christianity - today at my discussion group I challenged Christians on Christianity's role in the Slave Trade and plan to do a talk on it in a few weeks time

[speedymama]

So the question was asked of one of his wives and an answer given. Trying to work out where the divine revelation fits in.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I don't dislike discussions on Islam, and honestly don't think less of anyone who doesn't like the religion I follow for whatever reason, sometimes though it feels like the onslaught of negativity is neverending.

I think the biggest problem about quoting verses from the quran is that it's so easy to take out of context, it's taken me a long time to learn (and I'm still learning), that the revelations happened at specific times, and they pertain to specific events in the histroy of Islam.

The 'beating' verse really ticked me off, until I read that it is meant symbolically. I'd be the firstto walk out on man who thoguht it his right to cause me physical harm.

[edam]

I wonder if they are just doing the teenage/young person rebellion thing though and trying to wind the adults up. Like punk, but different!

[fuzzywuzzy]

SM, yes basically, a woman asked and she got her reply, it's specifically saying that sodomy is not allowed, but anything else between a husband and wife is, also that marital love making is considered a good deed.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Edam when I first got married, people I never knew would ask me the most outrageous questions, in the end I got tired, and would say things like, oh yes he beats me everyday, except friday cos thats our sabbath, he's let me out today but I need to be back before sunset which will be about 4pm as it's winter time.....I'm now wonderign how many people took me seriously!!!!!

[speedymama]

Fuzzy, you said, "I think the biggest problem about quoting verses from the quran is that it's so easy to take out of context, it's taken me a long time to learn (and I'm still learning), that the revelations happened at specific times, and they pertain to specific events in the histroy of Islam".

Don't you see the contradiction in what you just said though? If the revelations pertain to specific events in the history of Islam, why is Islam deemed to be immutable with time such that it does appear to adapt to the 21st century, e.g. women having to cover themselves but not men? Men having 4 wives? The evidence in Muslim countries irrefutably testifies to this. Why can men wear what they like but women can't?

Remember what happened to the schoolgirls in Saudi Arabia that were burned to death because the religious police would not let them out of the building because they were not properly covered?here

What about the Nigerian woman sentenced to death for having pre-marital sex but not the man?here


I notice that there is no response about the Christian convert being sentenced to death for apostasy.

[speedymama]

does not appear to adapt

[BrummieOnTheRun]

I suspect the 2nd generation of any immigrant community is more militant than their parents. That was my experience in the Irish community. As teenagers, we were all ardent Republicans driven by a heady mix of hormones, wanting to belong to a group, romanticism... and complete bloody ignorance. The 1st generation seem to want to integrate, the 2nd generation want to differentiate themselves, particularly if there's been social prejudice against their parents.

This Sharia Law discussion is interesting in the context of the recent discussion about the Catholic Church wanting to opt-out of laws that apply to everyone else.

I suspect the Daily Mail et al would have been slightly less supportive if you'd substituted 'Catholic' for 'Muslim' and 'Gay' for 'Women'.

[prettymum]

i was brought up as a muslim and all my family are and we're bengali. over the last few years i decided islam wasnt for me as i didnt agree with most of its teaching after reading the qu'ran.

when i tell other bengali people that i am not muslim, they look at me with disgust and tell me that islam teaches that all apostates should be killed. my family will only accept me back if i go back to islam and get my partner to convert.

i am so disappointed in how many asian muslims wont accept change and they are willing to disown their own child for the sake of god.

[fuzzywuzzy]

The Christian guy being condemend to death was a really strange case, the guy had been Christian for like twenty years and then suddenly the government decided they were going to punish him for apostasy. Lots of people did actually point out that apostasy isn't punishable. Unless the person is actively trying to hurt muslims ie in a state of war, where he is fighting for the enemy.

Women are required to cover but so are men, there are specific dress codes for men as there are for women. I don't think there's anything contradictory for womens dress code indicated then or now. I wear hijaab with comfort and ease now as did women in the time of the Prophet (pbuh).

The saudi case was completely atrocious,what the saudi's do is always paraded as the islamic thing, it's not. I've never heard anything more insane, I bet were it the other way round had there been boys trapped inthere by the fire and only women able to carry out the rescue nobody would have stopped them from being helped.

[speedymama]

Interesting Prettymum. I have a 38yo Muslim friend who is still single because she wants to play the field, much to her family's disgust (she is Pakinstani origin). Last year she dated a black Nigerian who was a non-observant Muslim but in the end, she terminated the relationship because her family would have disowned her because he was black. The fact that he was Muslim was irrelevant. They have lined up a divorced cousin for her but she is having none of it.

[DominiConnor]

People who want religious law have usually never tried to live under it. Shrai isn't any worse that traditional Christian laws. Try to make kids live under that, see how far you get.

About the worst places in the world to be a Moslem is where the country is run under Moslem law. It doesn't work, and fails in brutally appalling ways.

The solution is of course to let young British moslems experience it, especially the girls.

Sharia isn't just a mode of clothing, but the right of men to rape women, denial of things like driving a car, and being told who've you've got to marry. Moslem boys in England can choose to pursue their "own kind" or whoever else takes their fancy. Try doing that in many areas under Sharia, and merely having your balls cut off is the god scenario.

Currently only kids who've already mostly decided to give up free will go to Moslem countries for "education".
If those who still can think get to go as well, then they will not be seeing it in quite the same light.
I'd subsidise trips there.
The desire for Sharia would be seen as a joke within a few years.

[Blu]

Which verse of the Quran covers who can drive cars ?

[speedymama]

According to this there is a Fatwa banning women from driving in Saudi Arabia but they can apply for a licence.

[speedymama]

Must go but thought I would share this discussion from Irshad Manji, feminist Muslim and openly gay (yikes).

Do Muslims consider women as inferior?

Irshad Manji: Yes, I think most Muslims do, and in fact they are in a inferior position. Many Muslim women will not consider themselves as inferior but wear a veil because they feel as dignified human beings. Because they want to protect themselves against staring and judging by men. If women are so dignified, why is it the burden of women to cover up, in order to protect themselves from the stares of men? Why can't be accepted from men to control their own instincts or animal behaviour? This is a question that I have never heard a satisfactory answer from a Muslim women. And I will continue to ask that question. We urgently need an operation 'Ijtihad' to liberate Muslim women from their inferior status.

[Blandmum]

She is a brave woman, and has had death threats for voicing her opinions

[Ready]

Did anyone see the programme on Channel 4, Undercover Mosque? It was quite alarming to see the Imams (I hope that is right?) preaching some of the things mentioned on this thread.

[Blu]

Do I live a really odd life?

As well as knowing 3 gay couples who have adopted babies, I know and have worked with quite a lot of lesbian feminist muslims, (some of whom are in close contact with thier families, none of whom, afaik, have suffered death threats) catholics who find the current stance of cormac o'connor murphy embarrassing and wrong - and yet all discussion on MN tends to focus on the most extreme fundementalist doctrine and either assume that all involved act likewise - or else should stop being such hypocrites and stop their allegiance immediately.

[Blandmum]

I don't think that peole assume that 'all' (insert your group of choice here) act in this way. However some muslim states do carry out the death threat for homosexuals. Over 4000 have been killed in Iran, for example. While I am delighted that the majority of Muslims in the UK do no favour this treatment it is the punishment laid down by Sharia law, unless the homosexual recants his sexual orientation and confesses his sin.

Since this is a discussion on the desire for the adoption of sharia law, I think it is valid to discus all aspects of it, from the fact that it should not usurp 'local' laws, to its more extreme aspects.

The woman quoted lives in Canada and has to have armed guards, and bullet proof glass. I'm very glad your friends do not, but her bravery deserves a mention, don't you think?

[paulaplumpbottom]

You know I don't think there is any reason to worry I seriously doubt that Sharia Law will be introduced here.

[Blandmum]

I don't worry but I do feel it is a valid discussion. If muslims are putting the case for sharia law, I feel that you can discuss the issue.

Or can we only discuss it if a change in UK law is about to jhappen?

[Ready]

paulaplumpbottom, I agree. It is very unlikely that it would become the law in this country.

[Ready]

Agree with you MB, it is a very valid discussion.

[Blu]

Since the chances of us ever living under Sharia law in this country are negligible, I wonder why we need to go into the horrors of Sharia law as practiced in it's most extreme, again!

I DO think it is of concern that a number of young people do apparantly wish to live under sharia law, but we seem not to be discussing why they might, having apparantly enjoyed the freedom and justice of existing British law...

I am not an advocate for either islam or sharia law...but I wonder why the discussion always goes the same way. That's all.