"Young muslims want Sharia law in the UK" - Today's telegraph

[hecciesmum]

I can't help but wonder when I read these kind of scare tactic articles .....is this 40% of all young british muslims, or 40% of young british muslim men? Why do young men seem so much angrier than young women - or arn't they?

is it just me that thinks that if women were in charge the world would be a much more peaceful place?? We reason through problems - men just want to have a good fight to sort it out - be that verbally or physically.

Ok - have probably opened up a can of worms, but....Discuss!?

Hecsmum

front page of www.telegraph.co.uk.......sorry - am crap at doing links

[Blu]

If this is about the Munira Mirza study, it also says that 62% of 16 to 24-year-olds feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in Britain than with Muslims abroad . (though this is fewer than in older age groups).

I am afraid Munira Mirza always causes little waves of eye-rolling from me - she is nororious for causing controversy in her reports. She wrote one on the arts which included a paper stating that inititives to make the mainstream arts institutions accessible to non-arts attenders was an act of class vandalism.

But her main point is that attitudes are shifting in a younger generation and that the gvt should engage with young muslims and make them feel included. Which would make a lot of sense to me.

And it's 37% not 40%, in her study.

[Cloudhopper]

This sort of headline causes havoc in places where there are religious suspicions and distrust anyway. Imagine somewhere up North that the ethnic community are not very well integrated with the locals, and there are already tensions.

I just don't believe this for one minute, and I think that it is so irresponsible of the media to publish these weird leading question 'surverys'.

They could equally have discovered something more controversial like "40% of Catholics want to ban abortion" or "40% of Anglicans think that being gay is a sin". How about "40% of private school pupils think that having a regional accent makes you common".

The fact is that Muslims are still a fairly small minority in this country, and are going to have to live with the prevailing majority rule of democracy for some time. What is the point asking them things like this?

[fuzzywuzzy]

PC, the tax a dimi pays is supposed to be only a token gesture (it's supposed to be a negligible amount), they basically promise not to take an enemies side should a war occur, a dimi is not required to fight in a war, but Muslims are charged with their care should a war happen. In such a state non-muslim practice their own religion and to a large extent have their own laws too (although in the Prophet's time, Jewish women would ask for divorce through Islamic courts as they were not allowed to divorce their husbands through their own laws), so a dimi could basically pick and choose how they lived.

Apostasy is not a crime punishable by death in Islam...Few people know (or care about this as it doesn't have the desired effect of making Islam look evil).
During the time of the Prophet a man did become apostate, he converted to Islam and then became Christian (I think), when informed, the Prophet (pbuh) ordered him to be let alone, the man lived a long time, and eventually emigrated of his own accord, I'll look up his name if you like (not that it will mean anything) he was neither pursued nor molested for his actions, as he wasn't hurting anyone else.

[snowleopard]

Or indeed 65% of Americans believe the whole of the Bible is literally true.

[fuzzywuzzy]

The funniest thing I ever read was when there was that thing about britians most famous people , we voted for Winston Chruchill and Princess Di...

For the american version, the americans voted for ermmm Jesus
And there's me thinking bethlehem was in the middleeast!!!!

[snowleopard]

But fuzzy, the admirable actions of the prophet could be compared to those of Jesus, who was also by all accounts quite a tolerant person and told people to live and let live and turn the other cheek. That hasn't stopped a great many Christians from victimising gays, viciously punishing unmarried mothers, supporting the death penalty etc., and a few have done things like murder abortion doctors in the name of their beliefs. How Islamic law is interpreted and enacted today does have an impact on how people perceive Islam - whether or not that is true to its original spirit.

[jampot]

i agree with hecciesmum about women being in charge would be soo much better.

dont know what sharias law is im afraid

[fuzzywuzzy]

I don't know how laws of other religions are interpreted.


In Islam a law is only considered Shariah, if it fits with the guidelines of the Prophet (pbuh) teaching and the Quran, in the case where a man was most definitely not persecuted for his choice of religion, it's pretty obvious to any sane person that to then kill/maim someone on the pretext of religion is a perversion of the existing law and slander to say it is advocated by Islam when it is most obviously not.

[divamumdiva]

I agree with kittykettle,
this is a british country, ruled by british law,

live here - obey OUR law

simple

Im not british, im only married to british man. I dont even plan to be british nationality. Im from strongly buddgist country, although im not religious person. I guess there are almost the same or more number of asian( i mean those not muslim)as muslims and what happens if they want their law in the uk. ( which will never happen)

[speedymama]

Interesting comment Fuzzywuzzy about apostasy not being punishable by death. Does anyone remember the story of the man in Afghanistan who was sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity, here under Afghanistan's Sharia's Law?

Is this just Afghanistan's take on Islam?

Also, a look at the history of Islam, one finds that at the ?Nakhla Raid? against the Quraysh, a timely revelation helped Muhammad overcome his initial reluctance to accept booty derived from killings committed by his followers during the sacred month of Rajab, when fighting was forbidden. Those murdered had disbelieved Allah. This, the Prophet learned, was the greater evil. Believers were instructed to fight and behead non-believers (47:4), and did so mercilessly.

In the ?Battle of Badr,? for example, one captured Quraysh leader pled for his life, asking, ?But who will look after my children?? ?Hell,? replied Muhammad, ordering the man killed.

[Blu]

Of course a lot of young muslims ARE British....

There are two issues here.
The possibility that sharia law will be introduced in the U.K - negligible
The fact that some young muslims, and more than their parents, feel that they would like to see the law changed, and the reasons behind that. That is of interest and concern.

[Blandmum]

being openly gay would also result in death under Sharia law.

Sharia law requites 4 adult male witnesses (or twice as many women) to the act, or a confession. Being open about ones homosexuality would count as a confession.

[hecciesmum]

Why twice as many women as men?

Thisis really what I can't understand - the lack of female equality. Shaadia and Fuzzywuzzy - sorry to draw you back in, but what is your view on issues such as that? Do modern muslim women have a problem with the viewpoint that they are not taken as seriously as men?

hecsmum

[speedymama]

Blu, I suspect that in the latter case that they are concerned about the apparent deepening moral vacuum that appears to be engulfing the country and tbh, that is of concern to anyone with a moral conscience, regardless of belief. I certainly worry about it.

[speedymama]

Heccies, in the Koran, a woman is liken to a ?tilth? to be used as a man wills (2:223); a man may take four wives and have sex with slave girls (4:3); a woman?s testimony is valued at half that of a man (2:282).

Also when Muhammad was 50, he took Aisha as a wife when she was six and consummating the marriage when she was nine. This was, after all, in the spirit of the times. Nevertheless, for believers, the Prophet?s example transcends its time, and thus child-brides are a commonplace in the Islamic world.

[hecciesmum]

I find that really sad speedy - because it implies that humanity can not learn anything from the progress of time, and that everything should remain fixed as it was a thousand years ago.

[Ready]

That is terribly sad. A woman's word does not have the same value as a man's. Sad.

[Blandmum]

To be fair, there is diasagreement as to how old she was when she was married and when the marriage was consumated

[hecciesmum]

I'm not really that bothered about her age then when as you say "these things were commonplace"...Just that nothing changes and this would be considered Ok today by following the example.

[Blandmum]

The Koran is considered to be the word of God, and is not subject to change (in the orignal Arabic). There has been no reformation of Islam. The presence of the Koran is often considered to be the only miracle that all muslims believe in.

[speedymama]

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance):... "
The Book of Women 4.34

In this day and age, I wonder what beat them lightly means, particularly as the word in the Koran is immutable with time

[fuzzywuzzy]

Speedymama, the woman is like the tilth verse, is actually regarding the fact that sodomy is not allowed.

The witnesses thing is dependant on the case entirely, if there's a case where a woman would be more knowledgeable than a man than no male witnesses are required.

[fuzzywuzzy]

and that last verse you've quoted, is meant to be symbolic, in cases where there is conflict between a husband and wife, they are instructed to elect one person from each side of the family ie the husband and the wifes, and to sit and try and work out their differences..
The Prophet (pbuh) has expressly admonished any man who hurt his wife.

I realise completely you dislike Islam, fair enough, thats your pergoative, but I'm sure anyone could [mis]quote lines from any book to make the entire thing look bad....

[speedymama]

Fuzzy, the full verse is

Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers. Holy Qur'an (2:223)

I don't understand the sodomy link?

[fuzzywuzzy]

Speedymama, the verse is actually an answer to a question a woman asked the Prophet (pbuh), she asked him (or rather his wife) if it was allowed that they could make love in certain positions, the tilth is a similie I suppose but it was regarding the fact that they could make love in any position they chose, but from only one point of entry (iyswim).