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Why is celibacy just SO important to the modern Catholic church?

71 replies

PacificDogwod · 03/08/2016 20:37

Why can a worldwide institution as HUGE as the Catholic not accept that sexual activity is a fairly basic human need? And that homosexuality is part of the rich tapestry of all human life? And that most of us will be somewhere on a continuum of human sexuality??
More for some than others, admittedly, but the vast majority of people will be sexually active at some point in their live (even if only with themselves).

On the back of all the reports on seminarists using Grindr I have been pondering: gay sex aside (and I really don't want to talk about the sexual abuse of minors or dependents SadAngry) within the church), why is there this ongoing insistence of abstinence/celibacy for Catholic priests??

To me this news story reads "Adult males use publicly available dating app" - I really don't see what 'the authorities' are meant to do about it.
Confused

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LynetteScavo · 03/08/2016 22:37

I meant aren't falling.

I thought the church was growing in numbers, but there aren't enough priests.

And until there is no one willing to become a priest things won't change. Although, I think places like the UK will see more priests brought in from countries like Nigeria.

PacificDogwod · 03/08/2016 22:40

The numbers are not falling world-wide, but they are very much falling in the Western World, was my understanding?
And yes, not enough younger people wishing to join the priesthood - you'd've thought they'd consider the other half of humanity: you know, women Grin

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ApocalypseSlough · 03/08/2016 22:44

It's strange isn't it. My take on it is that there are many incredibly unwordly, probably asexual priests and bishops- they don't understand that people generally need to be paired up/ have sex.

IrenetheQuaint · 03/08/2016 22:44

Yes, Lynette, and of course the public acceptance of homosexuality has reduced recruitment even more. 40 years ago gay Catholics knew they couldn't have an open relationship with another man, and in many cases would have felt deeply ashamed of their inclinations, so official celibacy wasn't really an issue as they'd have to be celibate (or pretend to be celibate) anyway.

Whereas now gay Catholics see gay people getting happily married right left and centre, and either leave the church or have a love-hate relationship with it which precludes them even thinking about joining the priesthood.

Destinysdaughter · 03/08/2016 22:44

I recall reading that it was originally to stop priests marrying so they couldn't pass property onto their heirs and the Church would retain the property. Then they found a way to justify it which has endured.

This explanation makes sense to me. Think it's time for a rethink now.

Igneococcus · 04/08/2016 06:40

In the catholic lower-Frankonian village where I grew up and my family still lives pretty much all church services are now carried out by non-German priests. My parents' golden wedding service was done by a priest from Ghana, my father's funeral two years later by an Indian priest, and the regular services are shared between them and several others, many of them Polish.
I'm an atheist but all the rest of my family are practicing Catholics, some of them very engaged in catholic organisations and none of them would care if priests were married or gay, they all use contraception and I have witnessed heated debates about abuse and cover ups, but, I suppose, the Catholic church needs to find rules that are acceptable for people all over the world and not only for Europeans. Many catholics I met from outwith Europe or North America are far more conservative than the average central European Catholic I know. Similar like how the Anglican church faces schism occasionally when more conservative churches object to female priests/bishops or openly gay priests.

PacificDogwod · 04/08/2016 07:53

Many catholics I met from outwith Europe or North America are far more conservative than the average central European Catholic I know

Yes, I think that is very true.

Destiny, that explanation makes sense: keep all property within the church. Hm.

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Pangurban1 · 04/08/2016 13:23

Real spiritual issues like Inheritance and dosh! I think it was originally informed by Greek asceticism. Christianity was shaped by other traditions before it came to Western/Northern Europe.

Laughting at lljkk and viewing Pope Jean Paul in an anglophone way rather than francophone. If only.

Destinysdaughter · 04/08/2016 16:33

Interestingly I read that piece of information in this fascinating book about the history of the orgasm!

www.amazon.co.uk/Intimate-History-Orgasm-Jonathan-Margolis/dp/0099441551

MammouthTask · 04/08/2016 16:45

Well a rule that has been there for 600~700 years is hardly new. It's more than 1/3 of the existence of the Catholic Church.

As a catholic, I have always been told that priests had to give their whole life to god and that includes their sexuality.
I'm I retested by the answers I this thread as they are very different to what I would hear in my home country. Which then makes me ask, do they put emphasis on different bits depending on the country?

MammouthTask · 04/08/2016 16:46

Actually I've been told that whe they are training to be a priest, this is a subject that is talked about quite a bit too.

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 04/08/2016 16:57

Yes I agree with Pangurban that it partly comes from a tradition of ascetism - living in a cave and foregoing all worldly goods a bit like John the Baptist or Jesus during those 40 days... oh dear all of that seems so far away from the Church, any Christian Church these days Sad

I wonder if this is one of the things this Pope wants to change. He will be meeting some pretty strong opposition in America I believe.

PacificDogwod · 04/08/2016 17:02

Oh, I get where it comes from. Self-flagellation seems to be another utterly unnecessary tradition that has lost its appeal and justification.

Mammouth, I think many things have been handed down over centuries that started for a particular reason but are now self-perpetuating 'because that's how it was always done'.
Lets face it, many religious rules are man-made and NOT delivered on tablets of stone…. the 10 Commandments make pretty good sense to me, even now (well, I don't covet my neighbour's cow because they don't have one) and similar rules are evident in most religions.
And it does seem to be true that the adherence to the strictest of CAtholic doctrine is more widespread in non-European parts of the world.
Does that tie in with your experience?

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Destinysdaughter · 04/08/2016 17:28

Agree about traditions being perpetuated just because that's how they were always done. Often initially for quite practical reasons not spiritual ones. For example, burying a body v soon after death makes perfect sense in a v hot country for hygiene reasons as they would decompose v quickly and potentially spread disease.

Rainbunny · 09/08/2016 17:35

lljkk - the Catholic church is still VERY concerned about money which is part of the reason they covered up mass child abuse. I lived in San Diego several years ago when lawsuits against the San Diego Diocese were going on and rather than pay any money to victims which would have totaled millions (and they could afford it, very rich diocese) they moved money around and then attempted to file bankruptcy. Luckily the bankruptcy judge wasn't having any of it so it ultimately failed. What a good, kind and honest institution! If you can't tell am not Catholic (ex actually).

I find it ironic that the Catholic church recognises the power of sex which is precisely why they try to control it, whilst pretending that people don't really need to have sex and so can easily abstain! A bishop in Pennsylvania recently announced that the Catholic church should allow married couples who have previously been married and divorced to receive communion but... only if they will live chastely like brother and sister and never consummate their marriage! So he is really moving with the times then...

PacificDogwod · 10/08/2016 19:38

I find it ironic that the Catholic church recognises the power of sex which is precisely why they try to control it, whilst pretending that people don't really need to have sex and so can easily abstain

Yes. That. Seems paradoxical and mutually exclusive.

If a priest is to be a support to his flock and a man of the people he serves, then he should be free to form adult relationships IMO, just like anybody. Not everybody wants/needs to be in a relationship or sexually active, but most humans do/are.
We are not talking about a small number of extreme ascets,, living in caves, denying themselves all human comforts, but vast numbers of people all over the world.
As a concept, I cannot see how celibacy was ever going to be a longterm success.

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minatiae · 10/08/2016 19:44

Sex is not a basic human need. Humans need to have sex to reproduce, obviously, but the act of sex and sexual activity is a 'want', not a 'need'. Nobody will die because they're not having sex.

If someone chooses to be celibate because they have chosen to become a priest, because they believe in abstaining until marriage, or simply because they don't want to have sex, they are just as right to make that choice for whatever their reason (even if for no significant reason) as the people who choose to have sex are to make their choice.

Most people want to have sex. Lots of people don't or choose not to. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

Sex is just NOT a human need. Water, food, and shelter are needs.

minatiae · 10/08/2016 19:44

Sex is not a basic human need. Humans need to have sex to reproduce, obviously, but the act of sex and sexual activity is a 'want', not a 'need'. Nobody will die because they're not having sex.

If someone chooses to be celibate because they have chosen to become a priest, because they believe in abstaining until marriage, or simply because they don't want to have sex, they are just as right to make that choice for whatever their reason (even if for no significant reason) as the people who choose to have sex are to make their choice.

Most people want to have sex. Lots of people don't or choose not to. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

Sex is just NOT a human need. Water, food, and shelter are needs.

IrenetheQuaint · 10/08/2016 20:32

Well, up to a point, minatiae; I've been celibate for years and it suits me fine, but I'm in a pretty small minority as far as I can tell, and even I wouldn't sign up to a profession that banned me from ever having sex again.

I don't think anyone is objecting to priests who choose to be celibate, it's the requirement to be celibate that is the problem (and means that recruiting Westerners into the Catholic priesthood is very, very hard).

PacificDogwod · 10/08/2016 20:41

Yes, ok, I agree, sex is not a need - I was lazy in considering the word I used.

Most people will choose to be sexually active at some point in their lives (even if it is just to masturbate).
I would stipulate that more people might be interested in serving their church, their faith, their congegrations (and, crucially, not do a worse job of it) if they were allowed to be sexually active if they so chose.

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Rainbunny · 11/08/2016 00:02

I was the one who originally used the word "need" in my post and I agree it was somewhat lazy. I would say though that humans have a drive to have sex and it is fundamental. It is a choice of course whether to engage in sex or not but trying to suppress human sexual drive is about as successful as sitting in front of the sea and willing the tide not to come in.

MammouthTask · 14/08/2016 12:42

But sex also leads to excesses of all sorts. Which is what the Church wants to avoid.

There has never been the idea to stop priests from being sexual at all. Actually, their sexuality, thought masturbation, is given to God.
What us not accepted us sexuality fulfilled through having sex with another human being because, as we all know, relationships are often messy and therefore the focus of the priest will not be just on God but also on the relationship, maintaining it, being frustrated if they dont have sex blabla. Being in a relationship is adding a lot of other issues to their life's iyswim. Just think about the number of people getting divorced for example and the % of people in unhappy relationships. Why would it be different for them? (or at least this is how it was explained to me by someone training to be a catholic priest)
Of course, it also means they are supposed to guide people thought stuff they have no idea and/or experience of ... which is one of the biggest issue people have about it.

2016Blyton · 14/08/2016 12:50

My mother thought in the 1960s the church after the second Vatican Council would be changing all this - allow birth control etc. She was disappointed. She was a Eucharistic minister for years in the church (handing out communion, going to old people's houses with it etc etc) so in many senses was doinig what a lot of priests did but being female and married could not be a priest as such.

I think Pope Francis may well allow women priests and may allow that change before any about contraception and sex. I did complete the recent survey of all Catholics about your views on those topics and I hope others on this thread did as it was your chance to give your views.

As for whether we should always indulge in what we want but don't need whether that be sex, gluttony and all the other things of that ilk that is an important moral issue isn't it? Self indulgence is not always the route to personal happiness.

Rainbunny · 14/08/2016 18:32

"But sex also leads to excesses of all sorts. Which is what the Church wants to avoid."

and pretending that sex isn't a fundamental drive that nearly all humans engage leads to far worse consequences, such as unplanned pregnancies, the massive spread of diseases like HIV because condoms are bad!

As for masturbation, I was raised as a Catholic and trust me masturnation was very much a sin. I just checked to see if that was still the stance and it very much is!
www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/masturbation-mortal-sin.html

PacificDogwod · 14/08/2016 19:19

It is very much my impression that pretending that celibacy sorts all problems relating to messy human sexuality solves all problems, has not only NOT worked, but has been very damaging to lots of people.

IMO if an individual feels that they can follow their vocation as a priest more totally by remaining abstinent, then power to them. But to make it a sweeping rule? Setting people up to fail IMO.

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