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Did the Orlando attack just hand the presidency to Trump

62 replies

ftw · 13/06/2016 20:49

I've just watched a Trump speech. Oh dear God; no nation building in the ME, no immigrants from certain countries, American Muslims must turn in the bad ones, he's going to protect all the law abiding Americans etc etc

I fear it's going to play well.

OP posts:
annandale · 20/06/2016 00:43

God this stuff about bad guys and good guys. There is nobody on the planet who is wholly good or wholly bad. We are all humans and subject to changes of mental state, involuntary and voluntary, and all have moments of anger, weakness and depression. And moments where we leave our handbags on the back seat of the car next to our two-year-olds.

I do expect the army to do some tasks i wouldn't, and I have no intention of buying a shoulder-mounted bazooka for my own protection.

Luckily Trump's schtick is starting to wear a bit thinner now that his 'taboo breaking' rhetoric is being directed against figures people respect. Depressing that that's what it took, but still. I suppose it's still just about possible that he could win as I know there are many of the US electorate who will never vote for Hillary Clinton, but it seems vanishingly unlikely.

chilledwarmth · 20/06/2016 01:06

Sorry Greenwood but that's incorrect. Vigilantism is when you take the law into your own hands, punishing the criminal yourself rather than letting the authorities do it. I'm only talking about protecting yourself. annandale that is correct we are all subject to changes of mental state, anger, and other emotions. That is why I carry, humans are unpredictable and as much as I would like to I just can't bring myself to believe in a innocent world where no one will ever try to harm you.

I laughed at the bazooka comment. I can't imagine any situation where I or any other citizen would need a shoulder mounted bazooka, I don't see any need for a citizen to own or indeed carry one and the law is pretty sensible on that. Want to buy a bazooka? Good luck. On the other hand there are many times where I can imagine a citizen being in need of a gun for protection and that is where the difference lies. I don't like either of those candidates, I've never been a fan of Trump and I really hate Clinton for all the shit she's done.

annandale · 20/06/2016 01:11

Humans are unpredictable, and so are you. You are not a good guy, just as I am not a good guy. My dh, the gentlest man on the planet, is hearing voices at the moment, constantly. I'm pretty worried about him but at least, thank God, I don't have to worry about him having or finding a gun.

claig · 20/06/2016 01:21

annandale, is your DH on some medication with possible side effects that is possibly causing this?

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 20/06/2016 01:31

chilledwarmth, how would you react if I told you I have rarely ever even seen a real gun? The guards at Buckingham Palace, and that's about it, certainly for the first 20yrs+ of my life.

When, in my 20's, I travelled to Singapore, it was a real eye-opener to me to see the airport security there all carrying guns.

Travelling from London airports after the recent terror scares, you will see more UK police patrolling with guns. But, still, in surveys, over 80% of our UK police force are against the routine arming of police with guns.

Guns just aren't on our radar in the UK - they're not part of our everyday lives, we're not obsessed with them. And I like it that way.

I would no sooner put a gun in my handbag to go about my daily business, than I would put in a grenade or a bomb.

And say what you like about guns - you still cannot account for the awkward fact that you have a horrific number of gun homicides in the US. In the UK, we don't. No guns, you see.

chilledwarmth · 20/06/2016 02:26

Hey Greenwood, I would react by asking if your knowledge and experience on this subject is as low as you admit (rarely even seeing a gun) then maybe don't be so quick to casually dismiss everything I say as being incorrect. I'm not saying you don't deserve to have an opinion, an attitude like that would effectively lock almost the entire UK out of the gun debate. But I do have a level of practical knowledge on this subject. A lot of mumsnetters have no actual knowledge of this subject and will form ideas based on incorrect assumptions. I remember someone saying something like chilled you would just panic and end up shooting everyone you saw with a gun including other good guys with guns. That isn't how it works, but that person went on to argue heavily against guns based on their claim which was wholly incorrect in the first place. For some reason they decided that someone who had never even touched a gun was better qualified to say how I, someone who has been using guns from a young age and has had training for an active shooter, would respond in an shooting.

No one in my community is obsessed with guns. We may carry them every day but we're no more obsessed about them than we are with our phones, and our house keys which we also carry everywhere. And I wouldn't carry my gun in a bag either, first reason being not easy to get to and second I'm a guy and I'd look odd with a handbag Smile

annandale · 20/06/2016 07:30

No claig he's on 5 meds that are supposed to control it, together with other symptoms. They're just not working very well.

Convenient that implementing gun control then disqualifies an entire population from expressing an opinion on gun control chilled.

I've seen you on so many of these threads that I know you know all this anyway, faux 'as you say' notwithstanding. I actually see why Americans keep the gun laws they have, but the idea that some people are immune to misusing weapons because they are 'good' is silly and naive.

JudyCoolibar · 20/06/2016 08:01

Maybe you guys just feel differently about this kind of thing but I just don't get how you can expect other people like cops to protect you if you aren't willing to protect yourself.

We do protect ourselves, not least by living in a country that has sensible laws about guns. It is silly saying every individual has to be willing to do as much to protect themselves as the police and army do: does every individual have to have surveillance equipment, machine guns, grenades and tanks?

Well, if you really fear your neighbor that much then why do you not want to arm yourself just in case your fears turn out to be true?

The example give was an unstable neighbour with a gun. Mavis doesn't need to be armed, because her neighbour doesn't have a gun, because gun control.

Why do you seem determined that arguments between neighbors would escalate if they owned guns,

Gun injury and homicide statistics in the US demonstrate that sometimes that is exactly what happens.

A lot of mumsnetters have no actual knowledge of this subject and will form ideas based on incorrect assumptions.

No, their ideas are based on cold, hard facts about those statistics - and it is very noticeable indeed that you keep swerving them.

Your argument about how it would "work" if someone with a gun pulled it in, for example, one of the school shooting situations was based on the assumption that everyone with guns has the training you have. Again, you have wholly failed to deal with the fact that many, many people who own guns haven't had that training.

supersoftcuddlytoys · 20/06/2016 08:06

no nation building in the ME Is that a problem for you then OP?

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 20/06/2016 09:46

Your last point, Judy - exactly. We are civilians, we don't want or need to be trained in gun use, and arm our civilians (or indeed our police), because we don't live in the Wild West.

chilledwarmth, my experience of guns is indeed as low as I've said - and I imagine most people living in the UK will say similar, unless they're in the reservists, or farmers with shotguns, or members of a gun club etc.. I live in a village in SE England. If a policeman walks past me, I know he will not be carrying a gun. Just imagine that for a minute. Perhaps then you can see why I don't want, or feel the need to carry a gun?

It is actually very difficult to get a shotgun licence here - and you cannot own a handgun at all. I like that. Mothers in supermarkets don't get shot in the head by their own toddlers with their own guns - because that is the collateral damage that people have to accept in a country that allows civilians to carry guns.

It really is a different world to me, where someone will wear a gun in a holster to go to the shops.

MitzyLeFrouf · 20/06/2016 16:27

Firing one's campaign manager must surely be a sign that all is not well with Trump HQ.

And the Washington Post report that his polling figures 'are at a low that no one, Republican or Democrat, has seen in the past three election cycles.'

It's all going a bit Pete Tong for poor old Donald at the moment.

Mistigri · 20/06/2016 16:35

many, many people who own guns haven't had that training

Even trained people can get it wrong, and "wrong" with a gun often means an innocent person dead.

The Orlando nightclub had an armed security guard, presumably trained, who was of course unable to do anything to stop a man armed with military-grade semi-automatic weapons. That handgun in your handbag is about as much use against a semi-automatic as your lipstick would be.

Happily it does seem increasingly likely that some form of increased gun control - if only of military weapons capable of firing multiple rounds - is likely. Trump is doing predictably badly in the national polls and if he continues to behave as he has done recently, it's not certain that he will be the nominee.

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