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Goverment announce £10million package for primary schools music (and what songs should go in the song book?)

57 replies

MrsJohnCusack · 17/01/2007 07:09

here

missing the coverage for this as...er, don't live in the UK anymore! BUt am still interested. What do people think about this, is it going to work? Is it a good idea to promote singing (I say YES) but do the LibDems have a point when they say only 13% of primary pupils learn an instrument.

And, more fun this, what songs would you put in the song book?

OP posts:
snorkle · 17/01/2007 18:19

Message withdrawn

Greensleeves · 17/01/2007 18:41

Hey down ho down Derry Derry Down, whatever that one was

Mari's Wedding

The Frog's Wedding (roly poly gammon and spinach)

The Big Rock Candy Mountain

Frere Jacques

Allouette

She'll Be Coming Round The Mountain

In and Out The Dusty Bluebells

I've Been Working On The Railroad

Waltzing Matilda

Clementine

Loads more.... my kids love singing and so do I

Greensleeves · 17/01/2007 18:44

Oooh yes,

My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean

There was a Princess Long Ago

When Goldilocks Went To the House of The Bears

Oh Susanna

Michael Finnegan

Buffalo Gals

A Four-legged Friend

Do Your Ears Hang Low

I'll stop now

Califrau · 17/01/2007 18:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Enid · 17/01/2007 19:13

actually now I come to think of it I think its a great idea

pointydog · 17/01/2007 19:15

"all of joseph"

I'd take my kids out of school

pointydog · 17/01/2007 19:18

that's the sort of songs you should get mnetters to sing.

funk it up a bit with something more recent than 1972

pointydog · 17/01/2007 21:06

kum by ah

MrsJohnCusack · 17/01/2007 21:26

I bet they'll add something really recent and cheesy
like Angels (Robbie Williams)

yes it isn't hard to get primary school children to sing & generally they love it, but I bet loads of schools don't do it and need encouraging. I used to teach a Saturday morning music centre (8 kids at a time learning the clarinet, god it was hard work) and when we did the massed choir at the end, lots of kids never sang at school. It was fab.

the website is a good idea. £10 million isn't very much is it - it'd probably only cover the book and the publicity. it wouldn't go anywhere near anything to provide instruments & teachers

am remembering loads of old songs reading this thread - it's great!

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paulaplumpbottom · 17/01/2007 21:31

I love my Bonnie lies over the ocean

Greensleeves · 17/01/2007 22:47

so does my 2yo, he knows all the words, it's one of the cutest things I have ever heard

Edam · 17/01/2007 22:50

LOL at Ilkley Moor bah t'at for 'cultural inclusion'. Would like to see you trying out your teaching skills at a comp in Barnsley, Coddy!

isgrassgreener · 17/01/2007 22:56

our primary school love singing and have recorde two cds the last one was songs about transport
drive my car - the beatles
yellow submarine
these boots are made for walking
space odity - david bowie
and many more
there was not a dry eye in the house when they sang leaving on a jet plane

makes a great gift for your granny etc

pointydog · 17/01/2007 23:04

phew that's a bit better grassy.

Get with the beat, you bunch of one-potaters.

Marina · 17/01/2007 23:38

Apusski duski and Down to the meadowlands...Howard should either commission greensleeves to compile the songbook or find an old stash of Singing Together and raid that.

SueW · 17/01/2007 23:43

Thanks snorkle. I'm not sure if they would take it - it wasn't expensive, about £160, but is a perfectly good instrument for a primary age child to learn on. It has taken DD to G2.

JanH · 17/01/2007 23:58

Primary school kids would like Hallelujah I'm a Bum, I think.

SueW · 18/01/2007 06:53

Apusski duski rings a bell but not as loudly as okki tokki.

Agree on Joseph.

paulaplumpbottom · 18/01/2007 07:27

I would have to complain if my daughter came home singing any Robbie Williams

Hallgerda · 18/01/2007 08:27

LOL at JanH's suggestion.

Slight hijack - I've started a thread on musical instrument lessons in state primary schools in Primary here and I'd be very interested in any further contributions (and please, if it's not too much trouble, do give links if something wonderful is happening in your area - it could be useful to someone else, and I'd like to be able to tell people in RL all about it without saying "SaladDodger says", or giving away my own MN identity ).

Must sort my children out - I'll be back later with comments. Suffice me to say for the present that I think the LibDems have a point.

Hallgerda · 18/01/2007 16:50

Putting all the emphasis on singing does look like skimping. Don't we have any musical instrument manufacturers in this country with which the Government could do a dodgy deal?

As others have said, many children (including two of mine) who are otherwise not without musical talent absolutely loathe singing, particularly in groups, and could really be put off by yet more emphasis on singing. The voice wouldn't seem the easiest of instruments to learn musical notation with, either.

I gather from the Telegraph article on this here that the song book will have only 30 songs in it. I'm sure my old school hymn book had more than that... And there will be an emphasis on pop. Anyone else remember those "modernised" hymn tunes that sounded far more dated than the real thing? I don't imagine pop songs chosen for the song book will fare much better. Pop music with the "respectability" to be chosen for this publication will completely lack street-cred anyway.

cod, I think On Ilkley Moor Baht'At belongs on the science syllabus . Or maybe as new-age PHSE (we shall all be recycled).

MrsJohnCusack · 19/01/2007 09:27

Hallgerda - your third paragraph descibes exactly what I worry the book will turn out like!

sadly I don't think there are really any companies left in the UK which manufacture instruments, except very high end expensive ones. lots of importers of cheap ones from China or elsewhere though

Am guessing that the major reason instrumental learning will not be pushed further is totally the cost. Paying decent instrumental teachers does cost a lot, and parents often seem to resent paying the going rate (it may seem a lot but let me disabuse anyone who thinks you make a lot of money out of instrumental teaching - you really DON'T!). The other problem is that county music schemes/local peripatetic teachers are often hired to teach many instruments to save money/hassle and make timetabling easier, and they rush about over large geographical areas and never get the chance to know a school and what's going on there. I know lots of woodwind teachers, for example, who teach instruments that they don't even actually know how to play! Hardly a good start, especially when they sometimes only have 10-15 minutes per pupil - it's very difficult to teach someone in that time (especially when you have to set up a complicated instrument during the lesson as well) and lots of kids just give up because it's all so unsatisfactory. Then you have the instruments/reeds/music to buy as well, and you can't just buy really crappy cheap instruments because it's so depressing for the children if they're crap, and also because if they are shared and heavily used (and abused and neglected!), cheap ones just fall to bits quicker....There's also Saturday morning music schools in places (used to teach at one myself) - provision is patchy though I think and it's bloody hard work for the teachers (8 8-11 years old for 30 mins to teach the clarinet isn't fun, just learning how to put the bloody things together took weeks....)

I don't know what the answer is, but I think when it comes to instrumental teaching at primary level, simplicity is best. The recorder, whilst widely reviled (!) has so many advantages, it's cheap, easy to blow (there's no point starting many woodwind instruments too young, for example, as the kids don't have enough puff, big enough hands, developed enough teeth, sufficient strength etc.), the fingering translates easily to other wind instruments, it's good for learning notation, it's light and easy to carry AND it's not hard for a non-specialist teacher to learn and teach the basics.

Of course children should also have the opportunity to try as many instruments as possible. (I'm only really qualified on woodwind, brass and strings a bit of a mystery...piano/guitar/percussion different again). But I do think it's deeply unfair to pick who learns out of a hat, or allocate instruments rota style, or via any other arbitrary system (have heard of lots of different ways of doing it, including by build ). But god only knows who's going to tackle this. Did your hopes come to anything - I see on your other thread that you think they will spend the money on something else?

So I can see where they coming from with this singing malarkey - they're hoping to enthuse primary school children about music in general and hope it leads to them taking an interest for the future, and learning an instrument off their own bat. A sound idea, but I've no idea how it will work...

I'm sorry, I've really gone on. But the thing is, I have had so much enjoyment from learning instruments and that would have been true even if I hadn't gone on to be a musician. You hear so many people wishing they'd learnt an instrument, or not given up, it would be so lovely to hear that less in the future! And there are so many other benefits to learning an instrument......

anyway - shut up blethering! I'd love to hear other's ideas on all this though.

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MrsJohnCusack · 19/01/2007 09:30

god what an essay
was all for Hallgerda really, well done if you make it through though!

and it should have read - I'm only really qualified on woodwind, brass _- strings are a bit of a mystery to me...piano/guitar/percussion different again

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Hallgerda · 19/01/2007 10:32

Just got to this, MrsJohnCusack - thanks! My mother taught clarinet, i.e. anything from piccolo to bagpipes, so I know just what you mean about teachers teaching a range of instruments. (It's not always to save money, mind; bagpipe teachers are hard to come by outside Scotland or Northumbria!) And I know about the woodwind instrument fitting-together problems too, having grown up in a house full of clarinet parts, with that Steinbeck brothel disinfectant smell... As for stringed instruments, I dare say some might not even get tuned by the end of a fifteen minute lesson.

One thing that bothers me about the Government's plans is the "end to the postcode lottery" aspect. There are two ways a postcode lottery can be ended, and stamping down on those who are doing more is the cheaper option of the two.

Over the unfair selection point, I'm in two minds. I don't suppose we'll ever reach a position in which musical instrument tuition is genuinely available to everyone - as you comment, the problems are huge. But if schools take the line that if they can't be scrupulously fair to everyone they'll just not provide any instrumental music tuition, there's a group missing out in between the very poor/disorganized and those who'll just sort out private lessons, and there will be far less exposure to "real" music for all pupils at those schools. The gap will of course be filled by well-meaning short-term schemes using rap to appeal to the natural rhythm and short attention spans of inner-city kids . Perhaps an opportunity to develop the self-discipline and commitment involved in learning an instrument properly might address underlying problems, but I suspect that's just not going to happen.

End of rant.

MrsJohnCusack · 19/01/2007 10:42

hallgarda - have just read tamum's post on the other thread re selecting people for instruments. Something like that just might work - it is a shame if the kids you describe don't learn anything because of being scrupulously fair to everyone. I wish someone could come up with an answer (and I do despair of the 'trendy' schemes too)

(I hope noone ever tries to make me teach the bagpipes )

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