Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

A few thoughts about Europe by Fredric Forsyth..

34 replies

ProfessorPreciseaBug · 16/05/2016 07:45

FW: Frederick Forsyth's analysis of the EU

A long time ago a very wise old man advised me thus: “If ever you are confronted by a highly complex situation and a decision cannot be avoided, never rush to an early emotional judgment. Subject the subject to the four-pronged ARID. It stands for Analyse, Research, Identify, Decide.

ANALYSE

We all now face the decision: should we continue as obedient members of the EU or should we sever the link? Let me try to apply the old man’s advice.
Any country other than a shambolic anarchy must have a government. That said, most governmental systems end with the five-letter “cracy” derived from the Greek for “rule”. There are about 10. We know about autocracy, rule by a single tyrant. There is theocracy, rule by the priestly caste, such as Iran. Add stratocracy, rule by the army (Egypt) and plutocracy (by the very rich). We have seen gerontocracy, with the reins of power in the hands of the extremely old - the Soviet politburo in its last days. And aristocracy, rule by the nobles, long gone. But two are with us and visible. One is bureaucracy, government by the officials, the constant competitor for power with rule by the “demos”: the people. Democracy. It is by far the hardest to establish. It is the most fragile, the easiest to fake with rigged elections, meaningless ceremonies and elaborate charades. I estimate about 100 phoney democracies worldwide. But ours is parliamentary democracy so let’s give it a glance. Of course it is indirect. We cannot expect the electorate to go to the polls for every tiny decision. So we divide the country into 650 constituencies with one MP for each. The party with the most MPs in Westminster governs for five years. At the pinnacle is the Cabinet and, with encircling junior ministers, forms the Government, which I will call the power. But there is more. The power is held to account, not five-yearly, not annually or monthly but every day. Doing this is the official Opposition but also the backbench MPs even of the government party. This “holding to account” is vital. Assisting these critics is hopefully a free and unafraid press.

I have travelled very widely, seen the good, the bad and the very ugly and have come firmly to the view that with all its flaws the British parliamentary form of democracy is the best in the world. Not for those in power but for the people who between elections still have a voice. It is against this template that we can judge the system of the EU.

RESEARCH
After the war a group of men, politicians, thinkers, intellectuals and theorists, formed around Frenchman Jean Monnet, became kconvinced that what they had witnessed at close quarters - the utter destruction of their continent in a vicious war - must never, ever, happen again. It was not a bad view-point, indeed it was a noble one. They then analysed the problem and came up with two solutions. The first was that the various and disparate nations of Europe west of the Iron Curtain must somehow be unified into one under a single government. They accepted that this might take two, even three generations but must be done. This was not an ignoble vision. It was their second conclusion to which I take exception. The whole group was mesmerised by one fact. In 1933 the Germans, seized by rabid nationalism, voted Adolf Hitler into power. Their conclusion: the people, any people, were too obtuse, too gullible, and too dim ever to be safely entrusted with the power to elect their government. People’s democracy was flawed and should never be permitted to decide government again if war was to be avoided. Real power would have to be confined to a non-elective body of enlightened minds like theirs.

In the 70 years since, the theory has never changed. It remains exactly the same today. The British Cabinet has power and may delegate that power to a wide range of civil servants: police chiefs, generals, bureaucrats. But it itself remains elective. The people can change it via the polling booth. Not so in the EU. The difference is absolutely fundamental. They realised, those founders, that there would have to be façades erected to persuade the gullible that democracy had not been abolished in the new utopia. There is indeed a European Parliament - but with a difference. In London it is the Commons that is the law-giver; the Upper House is the vetting and endorsing chamber. In Brussels the EU Parliament has no lower house, it is the endorsing chamber. It ratifies what the real power, the non-elective European Commission, has decided. The broad masses would also have to be convinced that the purpose of the Monnet utopia was economic and thus about prosperity. This untruth has prevailed to this day and is the main plank of the establishment propaganda in our present British decision-making. In fact the final destination of the EU is entirely political. It is the complete political, legal and constitutional unification of the continent of Europe into a single entity: the State of Europe. This clearly cannot make war against itself, thus guaranteeing peace. Albeit without democracy.

It is amazing how many intelligent people have fallen for this fiction. Thus David Cameron can tell us with a straight face that he repudiates the three pillars of the EU - the doctrine of even closer union, a single external border but no internal ones (Schengen) and a single currency (Eurozone) - but still thinks we will sit at the top table. He believes the EU is about trade and tariffs. No, that’s what we thought we joined.

IDENTIFY
Back in the 1960s one British premier (Macmillan) after another (Heath) came to the view that with the empire departing into independence and the USA becoming more protectionist our economic days were numbered. If the world beyond the oceans was not communist it was Third World, meaning impoverished. Both premiers became convinced the future lay east across the Channel. Back then the union was six countries: Germany, France, Italy, plus minnows Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg. Wealthy, especially Germany, booming. Just the trading partners we needed. So under Heath we joined the Common Market. As a trading nation for centuries we were delighted to do so. Then the lies began. It would never go further, we were told. The Six became the Nine but all in Western Europe. Heath lied to us. He said there would never be any question of “transfer of significant sovereignty”. He had read the whole Treaty of Rome. No one else had. He knew this was just the tip of the iceberg.

Then in 1992 came the Maastricht Treaty. We were told it was just tidying up loose ends. More lies. It was transformational. It created the European Union. Slowly, decree by decree, rule by rule, law by law, our ancient right to govern ourselves the way we wanted to be governed and by whom was transferred from London to Brussels. Today 60% of all laws are framed in Brussels, not London. The lies multiplied. The entire establishment, much espoused of power without accountability, has become hugely enamoured of the new governmental system. Less and less need to consult those wretched people, the voters. It is no coincidence that the five professions that worship power - politicians, bureaucrats, diplomats, quangocrats and lawyers, plus the two that lust for money, bankers/ financiers and tycoons - today constitute almost the whole of the stay-in campaign. Almost to a man. And the lies proliferate. “There is no intention to proceed to a superstate.” Really? Read the Treaty of Rome. That is the whole point of the EU. What is not said is that in a unified continent there can be no place for the independent, autonomous, self-governing sovereign nation/state. The two are a contradiction in terms. Only here in the UK is that denied. In Brussels it is accepted as wholly obvious. “The end of nation” is regarded as a work in progress. Endgame is foreseen as a decade, maybe two.

DECIDE
The referendum decision of June 23 will be the last ever, the decision permanent. So this is your choice. This is about the country in which we will spend the rest of our lives, the land we will pass on to our children and grandchildren. What kind of a country, what kind of a governmental system? People’s democracy or officialdom’s empire? Our right to hold power to account or just two duties: to pay and obey? For me it is simple and takes just five words. I want my country back.

OP posts:
STIDW · 22/05/2016 14:56

Of course the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act was introduced in 2011 which significantly changed the law making a general election less likely.

SpringingIntoAction · 22/05/2016 20:36

I don't see the EU Commission as particularly equivalent to the Civil Service.

It isn't equivalent. It is very different.

The EU Commission & UK Civil service are both executive bodies with commissioners & top civil servants being appointed rather than elected.

I am one of those who have been appointed by the Commissioners into the UK Civil Service. I can assure you that we civil servants do not make law. The unelected EU Commissioners do.

EU Council
(democratically elected heads of EU states) set the EU agenda & the UK government set the agenda here.

But we can vote the democratically elected domestic UK Government out of office and we can repeal any laws it has made. We cannot do either with the EU, we cannot remove our appointed EU Commissioner (who is usually a failed politician rejected by the UK electorate or a unknown Government toady - who has to swear allegiance to put the EU above the interests of his domestic Government that appointed him/her)
We also cannot repeal EU law as we have agreed it is superior to our own UK domestic laws.

I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone wants to hand control of their country to an unelected bureaucracy. It is utterly alien to the British tradition of parliamentary democracy.

SpringingIntoAction · 22/05/2016 20:47

No, but then that isn't going to happen, so it's not a problem.

It is happening right now. The REMAIn voters just fail to undertsand or acknowledge it.

I'm not happy to sign up for consigning the country to the status of an economic minnow with no say on matters vitally affecting our trade and economy because we're no longer part of the decision-making process.

For a start we would not be an 'economic' minnow outside the EU - we are the 5th largest economy in the world. and will remain so.

Secondly, the UK has very little say in how our trade is conducted within the EU because we have surrendered our seat on the World Trade organisation and any deals are made on our behalf by the EU representing all 28 members, so their deals do not always benefit Britain.

Thirdly, our influence within the EU is small and will decline as each new EU member country joins. Do not imagine for one moment that Britannia sits at the top table in the EU. It does not. It cannot even beg crumbs from the EU's bowl - as Cameron's special deal' proved/

I'm not happy to sign up for something that would push us into recession and increase unemployment.

Recession = unfounded Project Fear, You've bought it. Unemployment is something that happens when you have a surfeit of cheap labour entering the UK jobs market from other EU member countries, forcing down wages too.

I think it is simply idle to suppose that we wouldn't be harmed by leaving the EU, and those who deny it are doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and loudly singing "La la la" to drown out inconvenient facts

Nope, those of us who are advocating it want o do so because we are not like the REMAIN voters who insist on being Little EUers, shackling themselves to a declining trade bloc and wishing to trade primarily with 28 member countries, while recklessly ignoring all the opportunities for trade with the rest of the world.

Turbinaria · 22/05/2016 22:36

Claig I think there will be general election this time next year if DC resigns as conservative leader after the European referendum, whatever the result, hence probably why Labour have suddenly become keen on putting their economic manifesto out a few days ago.
Gordon Browns mistake was not to hold a general election soon after taking over from Tony Blair as he needed a mandate from the people to be their PM and not be seen as riding on TB's popularity. I think this caused him a lot of damage when he did everually hold a GE 3 years later.
John Major called a GE soon after taking over from Thatcher and this legitimise his Premiership with his own party and the country.

claig · 22/05/2016 23:36

Turbinaria, very good points about Gordon Brown and Major. Brown left it too late and things just went from bad to worse. I can't remember exactly what Major did, but you are right that it is better to go early to shore up support from within as well as with the people.

I think you may be right that whichever side of the Tory party wins will probably want to capitalise on that win as soon as possible.

Clangersarepink · 23/05/2016 00:34

I got as far as "continue as obedient members of the EU" then stopped, as these words are obviously the rantings of a deluded idiot. Yeah, "obedient", that's why we replaced the Pound with the Euro all those years ago and never, ever get told off for breaking human rights legislation. "Right fucking pain in the arse members of the EU" would be more accurate. If this random punter thinks we're submissive members of the EU he's clearly not living in the real world. If you want the benifits of being in a club you have to negotiate the rules together. That's what we do at the moment. No, not everyone is happy... but will leaving the EU create a UK where suddenly we all think as one? Or one free from injustice and beuraucracy? Of course not. This whole Sovereignty thing is a total red herring. The Brexiters want a UK that never has existed and never will exist.

Tanith · 23/05/2016 08:06

Frederick Forsyth??!

Ex-MI6 operative turned novelist - that Frederick Forsyth?? Grin

They'll be resurrecting Dennis Wheatley next!! Grin

cressetmama · 09/06/2016 17:20

This week, I read somewhere a quote from an anonymous senior Eurocrat that voting in the In Out Referendum should be restricted to graduates.

The more I read on the subject, the more I become convinced that the statist ambitions of the EU need to be reined back. I also think that the Euro-establishment is terrified that, with the polls showing the outcome to be on a knife edge, they will lose and Brexit will be followed by a series of demands for referenda in other countries where there sizeable chunks of the population have not been convinced that nanny knows best.

bcwk1104 · 14/06/2016 23:22

"I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone wants to hand control of their country to an unelected bureaucracy. It is utterly alien to the British tradition of parliamentary democracy."
--------------------------
Would that be our parliamentary democracy comprising the House of Commons and the House of Lords (that body of 825 unelected people whose agreement is needed for any new UK laws and who have the ability to block laws put forward by the elected Government)?

Let's be clear about the legislative process and who makes new laws in the EU -

The European Council - on which each country is represented by their prime minister or equivalent - it sets the political agenda; sets out the EU's priorities. But does not make new laws. There are then 3 institutions which contribute to the legislative process for new EU laws:

The EU Parliament - the law making body (it has legislative and budgetary powers) - made up of 751 MEPs - the UK has 73 MEPs (directly elected by the UK voters as our representatives in the EU) (Germany has 96 MEPs, France 74, Italy 73 etc). Voters are able to directly petition Parliament on legislation.

The Council of the EU ( yes, confusing, I know) - members represent the Government of each country and it meets to co ordinate policies and adopt new laws. Ministers from each country will sit on this Council - for example, if the legislation being considered relates to finance - then currently George Osbourne, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, would represent the UK or if it related to agriculture then the appropriate Secretary of State or Minister would attend.

The Commission - an executive body made up of Commissioners (one from each country) - they represent the EU as a whole and not their individual countries. The Commission does not 'make' new laws. It is the Commission's job to propose new laws ( after carrying out endless studies/surveys) - the Council or Parliament may put forward proposals and an individual may also petition the Commission to initiate a proposal. The Commission will draft the legislation and co-ordinate its progress through the legislative process. It is also the Commission's role to check that countries are implementing new laws into their own systems. The UK is generally very quick to implement EU laws and has at times 'gold - plated' EU laws - that is made them tougher than the original EU law required. Other countries have been known to take years to get round to implementing certain EU laws.

The Commission does NOT adopt new laws - this is the job of the Parliament (the elected body) and the Council (comprising the appropriate minister from each government) - both of these institutions must agree before a new law is adopted.

There are a number of other EU bodies and the above is just a brief summary of those involved in the making of EU laws.

All together the EU institutions are huge entities and are easy to portray as 'beasts' beyond our control - however, that is not the case - we have elected our MEPs to represent our views and be involved in making laws which impact us and we have elected our government to also represent us in the process of making new EU laws.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread