The UK has a breastfeeding rate at 12 months of 0.5% apparently - worst in the world.

[minifingerz]

Whereas 99.4% of women in Senegal, where there is widespread poverty, double the UK average family size, no maternity leave and minimal medical or midwifery support for postnatal mothers, are still going.

Those statistics are mind-boggling, given that most of the 82% of women who start off breastfeeding in the UK state medical reasons for not being able to continue breastfeeding.

Does beg the question - how is this possible?

here

"Straight Talking Peer Education, which involves young parents going to schools and talking to pupils about the honest truth of being a young parent."

What a great initiative!

I know that culturally we like to think of it as an adult lifestyle choice, but it's actually just part of normal physiology of reproduction, which is something which is covered on the school curriculum.

But technique isn't covered in any of the other reproduction teaching. Are you saying teaching people how to bf or just telling them the benefits?

Ovaries that's interesting, if you don't mind me asking can I have more info? I'm a young parent so it might be something I'd like to do.

I googled it Ovaries I was 20 when I got pregnant so probably too old to be involved, still it looks great

I was surprised to find out that formula companies approach HCP in our authority at least to attend seminars about formula. The staff are reminded that they are not allowed to do this during working hours. That there is a code of conduct which forbids promoting formula but still HCP attend.

Then there is the ridiculous notion of follow on milk to get around the advertising rules. It's a marketing ploy and it works.

I also think that it was the done thing in the late 90s/early 00s to get babies in a routine. Gina Ford et al. Feeding on demand, feeding to sleep, baby wearing it's viewed as spoiling a baby but they are things that help establish breastfeeding.

Agree that an older baby that is on solids won't necessarily want more than a couple of feeds a day and it's not the end of BF if you go back to work.

"But technique isn't covered in any of the other reproduction teaching. Are you saying teaching people how to bf or just telling them the benefits?"

Yes - so for example, when talking about changes that accompany pregnancy talk about cell changes in the breast (lactogenesis) which happens to everyone regardless of their plans for feeding. Talk about how babies are born with immature immune systems (part of nature's design to help maintain the pregnancy) but that this is compensated for by the immune factors in breast milk, which results in fewer infections in breastfed newborns. Talk about hormonal changes that accompany breastfeeding, suppressing ovulation (though not reliably in modern mothers!) and changing sleep patterns to make breastfeeding mothers more responsive to their newborns at night.

All of this should be covered in any discussion of reproduction, because breastfeeding is a normal part of the female reproductive cycle. You can't talk about human physiology and reproduction properly without discussing it.

mini that's a good point, I was imagining you teaching teens how to latch and stuff!

DD was breastfed until 4 years 3 months.
Her DD is breastfed at 4 years 4 months.
I had an excellent ABM counsellor living nearby and being very supportive, in the Isle of Man.
DD had her own extensive experience as a breastfed child to rely on, and me to give her moral support.

Perhaps other people give up because they can't find supportive friends.

Saw this clip the other day. We need more of this on television.

I find nearly every single one of your posts are a snide dig at mothers who don't BF or "try hard enough". And it's fucking me off. Just like every one of these threads of yours.

Even your posts about women who can't for medical reasons. You go on to explain how they are a "tiny" and "rare" minority, and then piss all over that saying how there are fewer women in other countries with these (non) issues.

You are asked about pain making women stop. You say it's just psychological, implying that they are just weak and selfish mothers, and then again go on to tell us how "other countries" manage to persevere.

Your comments have undertones about the intelligence and class of those who FF for whatever reason, implying that if they were more clever or educated, they wouldn't have given up so easily.

You also imply that trauma from a bad birth is just a handy excuse and no reason not to do it.

You have responded to people saying they didn't get support from MW/GP by saying that actually, midwives do give very good advice but the people who don't BF or who stop early never really wanted to BF in the first place.

You might be telling yourself that you're just interested in a discussion about a public health issue, bit it's pretty clear to me that you just want yet another opportunity to get on your soap box and bash women who didn't BF for as long as you think they should have.

No doubt you'll deny this, but as someone who is very neutral on how women feed their babies, as I see the benefits of different methods for different people, that is how your posts come across to me. So I can't imagine how someone who tried, but couldn't BF (for whatever reason) would feel.

Oh god, that Sesame Street clip is so sweet!

I remember watching it as a little child living in the US. It was WAAY ahead of its time.

"Even your posts about women who can't for medical reasons. You go on to explain how they are a "tiny" and "rare" minority, and then piss all over that saying how there are fewer women in other countries with these (non) issues."

But medically there are very few conditions which make breastfeeding impossible. As evidence from other countries shows us. The vast majority of women are able to breastfeed. I'm sorry you don't like that information, but I didn't make it up, and I'm not saying it to piss you off. It's a fact.

"You are asked about pain making women stop. You say it's just psychological,"

No - I said 'physiological'. That means

"implying that they are just weak and selfish mothers," Therefore this doesn't apply.

"and then again go on to tell us how "other countries" manage to persevere."

They do.

"Your comments have undertones about the intelligence and class of those who FF for whatever reason,"

There is a strong relation between social class, education and breastfeeding initiation and continuation rates in the UK. I'm not 'implying' this - I'm stating this, because it's a fact.

"You also imply that trauma from a bad birth is just a handy excuse and no reason not to do it."

Where?

"You have responded to people saying they didn't get support from MW/GP by saying that actually, midwives do give very good advice but the people who don't BF or who stop early never really wanted to BF in the first place."

Some midwives are supportive and some actively sabotage breastfeeding or unintentionally give poor support. Some stereotype mothers. Go back and reread my posts - you will see that this is what I've said.

"nd bash women who didn't BF for as long as you think they should have."

I think there's only one person on a soap-box who's bashing someone else here, and that person is you.

"that is how your posts come across to me".

I can't help the fact that you misread my posts and also interpret them in a way to suit your own agenda.

Sorry - 'physiological' means relating to the function of the body.

Do people think that the anxiety and focus on breastfeeding, whether a mother does it doesn't do it and whether people are in favour or feel under pressure to justify their choices, creates an atmosphere that both discourages breastfeeding because it is so visible and women feel embarrassed and makes all women feel scrutinised and judged whatever choice or route you take?

I'm only asking because when I asked my boyfriend why it is so much more common in his home country, he said he thought in the UK there's always someone watching you. Having been around his friends breastfeeding in his home country, it just wasn't something anyone blinked at or talked about.

LaPharisienne, there may be some truth in what you say.

We really, really focus on 'Choice' here - it's a basic principle which we value above everything else. My understanding is that in Norway (which has the highest numbers of breastfeeding mothers in the developed world) the assumption is that there isn't really a choice and that nobody discusses 'feeding choices' - everyone is expected to breastfeed and pretty everyone does. 98% of women leave hospital breastfeeding.

That would go down like a tonne of sick with UK mothers. The assumption here is that the most important thing is that you choose how you feed your baby, there is discussion of choice, and a strong feeling that choice as a principle and a fact should always be honoured above all else.

It's a different mind-set.

And I know people say 'it's great we have a choice in the UK' but to be honest, it doesn't seem to be making people happy.

The levels of angst, paranoia and defensiveness UK mums experience about their feeding choices has got to be the worst in the world.

Where? Right here:

But I'm still left with the question, what is it about UK culture or maybe maternity care that seems to make these things - pnd, tiredness, a difficult birth - the cause of such a high rate of breastfeeding fall-out, when it doesn't seem to happen like that in other countries? Do UK mothers have much more difficult births than Norweigan mothers?

Someone mentioned traumatic births and you responded with that. Asking if women in the UK have more difficult births than Norweigan mothers. Which is patronising and downplaying people's own experiences and own reasons why their own bad experiences influenced them to make decisions about their own bodies. You do not regard this as a legitimate reason for them to not BF.

And this post:

[...]midwives a few years ago who felt really strongly that there were many women who didn't want to continue breastfeeding, who weren't prepared to actually say this, and who made them feel absolutely shit for offering the support which they said they wanted and needed, but was actually really unwelcome.

They said they got really tired of offering ideas and advice to improve feeding difficulties which were constantly rejected or not followed through. And this was to mums who said they wanted to breastfeed. All the talk of bullying and pressurising - I can see why a midwife would be scared of getting labelled as a bully for offering encouragement in the form of reasons to keep going, and advice which a mother had said she wanted but didn't really. I can also see why some midwives curry favour by saying out of pity what they think women want to hear, rather than what they believe to be true as health professionals.

Honest, you cannot see how this post would come across? You are blatantly saying that women are frequently claiming they want to BF, lying, and then making the midwives feel shit for doing everything they can to help? You're implying that the people who post here saying they needed support but didn't get it are horrible people who bully midwives. I cannot believe you have posted that. It's awful.

Sorry, I misread physiological for psychological, a very unintelligent mistake from someone who was BF. Imagine.

And regarding the class issue, I understand that the class/education divide is between women who FF from birth and those who BF. I very much doubt it's as much of a clear correlation between those who stop by 6 months and those who continue past a year (which is what you're talking about). Though happy to see some evidence based UK studies that suggest this "fact".

I'm suprised at that number.

I am going to be completely honest I didn't bf because I hated it. I'm very shy and one of those don't touch me kind of people. I hated the mw grabbing my boob like I was some sort of bloody cow and shoving it in dds mouth, I hated anyone being around when she needed feeding and if out I would just rush home so I didn't have to feed her out and I hated the feel of feeding it made my skin crawl. I didn't even try with my two ds as I just couldn't bare to do it. I was so miserable with dd and I know that's selfish but hey at least I'm being honest.

It's really NOT selfish at all, Fasting, it's really, really not. Please don't let anyonemake you think that.

Fabulous thread, mini fingers, thank you.

I too wonder where the Lancet got its facts - I bf my two dc to 23 months and 35 months and nobody asked me about it...

I didn't know many people who ff in the first six months. More mums did after that but the majority continued bfing. Never experienced any negative comments feeding either of mine.

I was lucky though because our nct classes covered bfing and it was something I really wanted to do, so read up about it first. Also had good bfing support in hospital.

"You do not regard this as a legitimate reason for them to not BF."

How do you know?

I haven't said this or implied it.

You are reading things into my posts which are simply NOT THERE!

The point I was making is that women in all cultures have difficult births. However, in the UK the trauma can manifest itself in breastfeeding difficulties and early cessation of breastfeeding, whereas in other cultures it doesn't seem to to the same degree. I'm asking WHY this appears to be the case.

You are blatantly saying that women are frequently claiming they want to BF, lying, and then making the midwives feel shit for doing everything they can to help?

Are you a teenager? Because that's the sort of thinking my teen would employ to discuss this issue. 'Lying'? No. Women feel they ought to breastfeed - you know this. There is regular discussion of the 'pressure' women feel to initiate breastfeeding. Would you not accept that for some women it's very difficult to say - to themselves and to others - that they don't want to continue breastfeeding because they find it emotionally and socially deeply uncomfortable? Can you not see that for many women believing, and having others believe, that breastfeeding is physically unsustainable is the only reasonable option?

You may find it unpalatable, but maybe you simply don't know very much about the reality of providing breastfeeding support. Maybe you don't know any midwives and haven't talked to them about the reality of their interactions with women in the first few days and weeks after childbirth. The midwives I know (and I know many, and a good number of breastfeeding counsellors) will tell you that supporting mothers with feeding in the early days is a massively sensitive and challenging business. Mothers don't 'bully' midwives. But they sometimes accuse midwives of 'bullying' them. Of 'forcing' them to breastfeed. Of 'making them feel bad for not breastfeeding'. I'm not making a case that all midwives are sensitive, always consistent, always kind. I'm just making the point that mothers aren't always honest or upfront about their feelings and intentions relating to feeding, and that this can make communication very very difficult.

"You're implying that the people who post here saying they needed support but didn't get it are horrible people who bully midwives". I'm not.

"I cannot believe you have posted that". Probably because I didn't.

Seriously - can you stop with all the 'you're 'implying'. I either said it or I didn't. And I didn't say it. You have your agenda - it's nothing to do with my or my views.

fasting, do you know that phrase 'fish can't see the water'?

We try our very hardest to look after their babies as best we can. Our feelings about feeding are deeply rooted in our cultural and family backgrounds and are very intimate. It's hard to swim against the tide when it comes to how we do things with and for our children. I think this almost every day about so many different aspects of my parenting.

That's why I want to cultural tide to turn in relation to feeding, so we don't experience so much dissonance and pressure. Make life happier for all of us.

I was 19 TheCats and they've asked me to get involved (I have a blog about reducing the stigma and increasing education which is how they found me) so it's always worth getting in touch and having a chat with them, it's a really fantastic initiative.

I'd love to see breastfeeding discussed in schools just as a normal aspect of parenting.

I have to say I know with my first I really felt like I shouldn't say I hated bfing the pressure to do it was so much and I felt like a failure.

I also think we live in such a sexualised society that like others have said we are kind of expected to be back to being sexy almost immediately after having a baby and it gives mixed messages. I don't know if that makes any sense.

It seems really low.
dd is 16. she had food allergies when she was little. Her paed at 18 months was very supportive of her still being bf then. She self weaned at 2. I didnt know anyone else feeding to that age but I usually dont give a stuff about what others think. The early months were tough with mastitis and some other stuff but I was waaaaaay too lazy to make bottles. Sticking her on the breast was definitely the laziest option.

A study on the effects of breastfeeding on PND in over 10,000 mothers. www.laleche.org.uk/news/new-study-breastfeeding-linked-lower-risk-postnatal-depression

"I also think we live in such a sexualised society that like others have said we are kind of expected to be back to being sexy almost immediately after having a baby and it gives mixed messages. "

Did you see this in the papers this week - a reprint of advice from Mother and Baby Magazine, circa 1960?

‘The pleasure the mother finds in breastfeeding her baby inevitably takes some of the pleasure from sexual intercourse with her husband.
‘It is because of this that so many couples decide the baby shall be bottle-fed, and sympathetic doctors will quite understand the importance of this decision.’

A very common problem is one of the wife who finds she has no desire to make love with her husband after her child is born, even after her postnatal examination has assured her she need have no such reservations.
‘This condition is called “post-partum frigidity” and it has been estimated that more than 80 out of 100 women have this problem to a greater or lesser degree.’