*sigh* Jeremy Clarkson is off on one again, do we have a thread yet?!

[DorynownotFloundering]

bit of info

Now I defend his right to have his own vile opinions but this will start a shit storm of abuse against transkids and their parents yet again and by putting said opinions, and factually incorrect statements in a Sunday paper column is just not on. (if entirely in character)

Funnily enough it's been pulled from all the online editions today.

Th article hasn't been taken down from the Sunday Times website at all. I'm not sure his comments are as controversial as you would like to make out.

Pipstrella but that's the point if the child wanted to dress as a girl & play with what she felt were girls toys, however that manifested itself, then that's good

This is utterly depressing. What are girls toys? Dolls? Things that are pink and frilly? Are boys not allowed to role play looking after babies? They see their fathers doing it.

I base it on seeing 2 friends of my dcs who have gone from expressing confusion about their gender, to changing first name, to hormone treatment and counselling to identifying as their birth gender all whilst at school.

Just because it's fashionable right now to be trans, people are willfully ignoring how it forces us all into more rigid (damaging) restricted gender boxes.

Why can't a boy wear dresses, have long hair and play with pink Lego instead of blue lego, and still be a boy.

We should be encouraging people to challenge gender restraints not reinforce them.

Transkids shouldn't be a thing. Children should be children. Genderless, just themselves.

It's wrong and borderline abuse to put more pressure on a child by reinforcing their belief that there must be "something wrong" with them.

I'm glad he's speaking out about this. He may be a dick, but I agree with him on this. I will be relieved when this particular craze dies down and we all move onto something else.

I firmly believe that later generations will look back on the early 21st-century 'trans' phenomenon like this and wonder how people could have condoned such barbarous medical interventions based on nothing but socially-accepted behaviour stereotypes and the delusions of psychologically maladjusted individuals.

It's every bit as insane as the medicalisation of 'hysteria' in Victorian women, and every bit as historically and culturally specific.

When I was young there were Tomboys . And many of my friends were. One in particular was very 'masculine- clothing , hair, sports ( IYKWIM ) until o levels . Her parents neither encouraged her or discouraged they let her be / act / wear what she wanted . She always said that as she had been boyish from an early age she felt it very hard to 'change' to become more feminine even though she wanted to as it was sort of expected of her to be boyish and eveyone had said she was a tomboy. She felt she would have the mickey taken out of her in her teenage years so she kept it up. When she got through the early teeanger years she realised she could be what she wanted to be and she decided to be more feminine. She still plays ladies football ( Going back 40 years ago football was more a 'boys' sport)and she is pretty good at fishing!

Ohuge
I firmly believe that later generations will look back on the early 21st-century 'trans' phenomenon like this and wonder how people could have condoned such barbarous medical interventions based on nothing but socially-accepted behaviour stereotypes and the delusions of psychologically maladjusted individuals.
Yes!

It seems to me that gender role ideas are getting more polarised. we have always understood that men can have or develop or allow to show 'female' traits and perspectives, and women can have or develop or allow to show 'male' traits and perspectives, its just that now these are seen as evidence of needing a gender switch instead of just being how people are, which I think is dangerous.

I am a guy who did have a doll as one of my toys, did learn to be caring, did unlearn to be caring, then relearn it, I enjoy female company more than guys, and in some groups I am asked over and over if I am gay because of this, but in others..in fact in the most confident groups. It is never asked, I am also proud of being able to be quite in touch with feelings, when its appropriate, but this has more recently become 'do you think you might be a woman' in some circles, which I do think is odd... I also think that if a child for example wants to be a cat for long periods, there is never a conversation about feline realignment surgery, etc etc, but I think JC here is just being the crass 'simple explanation that avoids thinking about the issue and dismisses 'comically' in doing so is what he is, (and always attempts to be), doing here.

Little Bear when I said "girls toys" sorry I should have said he can play with what he likes, & dress however he likes, and no of course that doesn't make him a girl.

But if that child is unhappy, distressed to the point of illness about being as they feel "in the wrong body" then a supportive parent would get help to enable the child to explore why it is they feel like that and to see how it pans out. If they then revert to being happy with their original state then happy days, if they don't then the fact their parents are supportive & get professional help that will enable them to be happy in whichever way they need to be.

seriously 2 children who were confused does not represent the whole situation. Their parents were brave enough to acknowledge there was a problem and get help to work through what obviously was (for them) a phase. For some children that is the case, but the support to work through that, while bloody tough for the parent, is vital as belittling their feelings can be extremely traumatic.

It is very difficult when you are on the outside looking in at this situation (as I once was too) to understand it all, (still working on that myself) but whatever your views are on this it does not give you, or Clarkson the right to call people abusive or unnatural. It is one thing to mouth off ill-informed views as JC has, with no knowledge of the subject, but another when you are actually dealing with real life people, distressed parents and children

I respect your views while disagreeing with them, can you not do the same and allow some discussion of the opposing experience /viewpoint on trans issues without it always descending into a bunfight?

It is a shame because I have learned a lot from some of you, and a wider discussion in a balanced way would be so much more civilised.

Rosa, there was a girl at my school a bit like that.

She changed her name to a boys' name, unofficially (like a nickname) and didn't really go for traditionally feminine clothes or behaviours.

I don't know why. We all just accepted her, she was shy and funny and nice and generally a good egg. I didn't think about transgender stuff back then. She was just a friend.

Perhaps she felt uncomfortable in her body; I don't know. But she didn't need to become a 'bloke' in order to be herself.

I really do think that people who decide they are actually the opposite gender due to this sort of thing, are a bit deluded.

It is what it is. You're male or female and that's that, in 99.999% (or whatever it is) of human beings. How you feel and what you wear and so on are irrelevant to what sex/gender you are.

Pipistrella but what if that friend was not happy just being "allowed" to dress as she wanted, and called what he wanted.

What if she were so unhappy that she became suicidal ?

And what do you say to youngsters who go through all that, transition successfully over a period of time and with all appropriate counselling and support and then ARE HAPPY AND LEAD NORMAL LIVES ?!!

We only ever hear of the sad stories the ones where it doesn't work out. But there are thousands of very happy transgender children out there who form positive relationships, get good jobs and have a brilliant future.

All we want as parents is that for our children surely?

Sorry I can't remember the name of the Doctor, but he used to do gender reassignment surgeries, but when they followed up the people who had had the surgery, it was found that the levels of suicide/depression etc hadn't been reduced, so he stopped doing the surgery. Wouldn't it be better to tell children that it's not possible to change sex and to support them in becoming comfortable with their natural bodies?

It was Paul McHugh

BadDoGooder thanks you said how i feel

Dory
Their parents were brave enough to acknowledge there was a problem and get help to work through what obviously was (for them) a phase. For some children that is the case, but the support to work through that, while bloody tough for the parent, is vital as belittling their feelings can be extremely traumatic.
Did you miss the bit where I said they'd had hormone treatment? Their bodies have been changed forever because their parents were 'brave' enough.

He's a prat who is being outrageous for attention, again.
Male Katie Hopkins.

Dory, then I would consider that her family and/or society had totally failed her, and that it was very sad. But I'd still be her friend.

I just don't see it happening - she was aware she wasn't happy dressing like 'most' girls liked to dress, and she didn't like her name, and so she changed them and got on with it.

People can't decide to be a dog or a raccoon or whatever, because being a human doesn't feel quite right. I don't understand how a desire to pretend to be a different sex, is cause in itself to make it legitimate.

I mean in the legal, compete against actual women, go to women's prisons sort of legitimate.

People can pretend what they like, I use a different language sometimes when I feel insecure, around strangers who are people I'll never meet again, and it helps me feel safer. It's a similar thing I think.

I would never in a million years decide that I had a legal right to change my nationality on the back of that. I'm an English person pretending to be something else.

But there are thousands of very happy transgender children out there who form positive relationships, get good jobs and have a brilliant future.

OP, I hate to be this person, but can you back that up with anything specific?

Come to think of it, there were a good few other girls who dressed in a similar way, had very short hair, one of them was obsessed with James Dean (I know why now, he's amazing) and had her hair like him.

It was an all girls school. There was a lot of variation in what constituted a girl, from the ones who wore a load of make up and flicked their hair a lot, and the ones who disregarded uniform and smoked, to the sporty ones who were relentlessly positive and confident, and the untidy, or unfashionable ones, those who were just particularly clever at something, or didn't care what they looked like, and the ones who wore trousers all the time and were a bit, well, 'butch' for want of a better word.

I think it gave me a good perspective on what a woman, what a girl, actually is.

It's all very well saying the parents are "brave" but it's not really them who'll ultimately have to be brave, it's the child who has gone through a load of shit and medical stuff, for what is arguably a not very good result/outcome. And if they transition fully, they'll quite possibly still have mental health problems, whereas perhaps if they were supported to be themselves and follow their interests etc, they'd be happier in the end?

In my school having a boyish version of you name, not dressing like a barbie clone and being interesting wasn't seen as 'possible transgender' it was seen as 'not being a thicky'

My DS at 4 years old started refusing to have his hair cut. From 2 years old at nursury, in dressing up he quite liked the snow white costume. At home he a toy push chair, that he'd push his teddy's about in.

When he refused to have his hair cut, I said fine. he had long hair for 4 years. He often got mistaken for a girl.

I honestly didn't think twice about any of these things and never made a big deal out of them either.

So it did surprise me when the parents of the child on the BBC the other week parents said it all started when the DC was upset that their hair had been cut off, the DC had thought they would get longer hair when they went to the hair dressers. I personally would have just thought a young dc had confused what a hair dresser is, and would have reassured them it will grow back and if you want it longer we'll leave it to grow next time instead.

Maybe there was more to these parents decisions, but that is how they stated it on the BBC. It just seemed to me that they saw their dc upset about having short hair and thought the worst and ran with it.

My DS is a a teenager now and by all accounts seems the same as other teenage boys.

I was also a tomboy and for years refused to wear skirts or dresses. I played with all my DB toys, hated dolls etc. Had short boy hair cuts too. My parents never batted an eyelid, I also was late teens when I finally decided to wear skirts and dresses.

In the 90s I thought we were progressing well re boys getting that same soet of tomboy freedom. Their were lots of people out normalising men wearing dress and skirts.
Eddie izzard, David Beckham wearing syrons(?) Jonathan Ross wearing skirt's. I'm sure there were some other people in the media at the time too. It seemed like the beginning of something inclusive, some thing that aloud individuals to be who the wanted.

"In the 90s I thought we were progressing well re boys getting that same soet of tomboy freedom. Their were lots of people out normalising men wearing dress and skirts.
Eddie izzard, David Beckham wearing syrons(?) Jonathan Ross wearing skirt's. I'm sure there were some other people in the media at the time too. It seemed like the beginning of something inclusive, some thing that aloud individuals to be who the wanted."

I thought so too but very soon after that you can start to see the backlash, the influx of pink stuff hitting the toy and clothing shelves, even prams, dummies and potties. Stuff became princessess and fairies for girls and dinosaurs and combat for boys. It's all marketing to get more money out of parents but it has become a huge part of our culture and children are suffering for it.

Jeremy Clarkson is a prick.

But stopped clocks are right twice a day.

Permanently altering a child in a significant way (eg puberty blockers) is abuse IMO. I disagree if anyone said kids are forced I to it, but they are definition coerced or groomed into it.

Trans is trendy, and being liberal is trendy

Whatever happened to that's nice dear, and supporting your child through all of their phases, whilst accepting that their likes/dislikes/whims should not be seen as a reason to physically alter them?

If your child is identifying as a dog, do you get hair transplants and a leash for them?

There is no-way a child or even a young adult can fully grasp the implications of puberty blockers etc.

OddBoots The whole transgender thing is part of the backlash. Look at this article - a transgender person basically arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to adopt clothes or mannerisms from the 'opposite' gender stereotype unless they're actually transgender, because reasons. It's utter bilge but exposes the reactionary heart of transgenderism.

Personally I don't understand why transgender is a fashionable left-wing cause when its founding idea - boys and girls have different brains and gender-stereotypical behaviour is innate - is so utterly, prehistorically conservative.