Cameron's comments about Muslim women's knowledge of English and links to Islamic Extremism

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What do you all think about the plans David Cameron made yesterday to allocate funds to teach Muslim women English?

My feelings about this are very mixed. On the one hand, I do absolutely believe that speaking English is a prerequisite for being a part of UK society, and having lived somewhere where I did not have a good grasp of the language I appreciate what a barrier that is, not only for the individual, but also for their children and other dependants in terms of creating a social network, following progress at school, getting out and about etc. I also agree that not speaking English in the UK leaves a person vulnerable to exploitation and unable to live a full life.

On the other hand, I completely fail to see how this will combat extremism. How many non English speaking foreign born female extremists have we heard about lately? I would bet my bottom dollar that there is bugger all link between lack of knowledge of English and extremism. I am not sure about the figures for the UK, but in France extremism is specifically linked to French native speaker second generation immigrants who were brought up in France or Europe and usually have a history of petty crime and were previously not religious, and ethnically French converts. Very few first generation immigrants have been involved. There was a really interesting article about it here and independently I have been told the same by friends who work in security.

I also think that if we are going to publicly fund teaching people English, then it should be made available to a much wider section of people who need it.

What do you think?

All the news stories of the people who have gone off to join and support daesh, are all English speaking a lot are converts (presumably their mothers spoke English).

they aren't known within the Muslim community and aren't active or even frequent attendees of mosques. Thought the indy article about that point made sense.

Do agree that it is beneficial to speak the language of the country you intend on making your home. But I do not think it has anything to do with preventing radicalisation. And singling out Muslim mothers is so wrong.

I don't think the is a plot to ensure the media can pollute muslim women with manipulative ideas. It's just what most people in the Uk want - that immigrants try to integrate and speak our language. It's comon sense and good for women, women's rights, equality in families and women's education. if sexist male muslims don't like that they can just lump it.

Deo no one on this thread has disagreed that all residents of the UK should speak English, we have just questioned linking a lack of fluency in English with extremism on the grounds that so far all UK fighters have been native speakers of English.

Extremism in the UK is a more complex problem than poor integration unfortunately and therefore harder to solve.

You put it much better than I did in my OP fuzzywuzzy.

I do think encouraging women to learn English is a good thing. I remember when I was younger one friend in particular had a mum who couldn't speak English. Her parents were both really friendly to me but I did feel a bit strange that the mum couldn't speak any English at all. What would happen if she needed something and didn't have her husband or children around to translate? It would definitely help integration if people spoke a basic conversational level of English. I don't know how you would force people to do it though.

I think conflating this issue with terrorism is unhelpful and probably adds to making some Muslims feel a bit, victimised (maybe a poor choice of word but can't think of the right word), by the government....maybe singled out is a better word.

Images,
You ask a very reasobnable question. "How does an imigrant leave their old country behind?"

TBH, I don't know. I was emigrated to Canada as a child, but my parents came back to the UK so I have no experience of it.

I do know it wil not be easy. People everywhere are slightly suspicious of strangers. The immigrant is always an outsider, ask the thousands of Brits who have tried to make a life in France (come to think of it, try living in
Scotland when your have a very English accent!) and the outsider always feels a bit isolated. So yes racism raises its ugly head. And I know what it feels like.

But the fact it is difficult is no justification to not integrate. You may not succeed but your children will reap the benefit.

Most important is that we are now starting to talk about it without someone screaming racist in order to shut up discussion.
Must do some work now!

The jews wo did it pretty well they went to the opera, enrolled children in fee paying schools, learned English, anglicsed some surnames, changed to dressing like most people in the UK etc etc. They (and indeed plenty of Muslims who do the same thing) managed it pretty well.

Every opera I've been to has been sung in Italian

Anglicising names is unnecessary IMO.

I lived in a very Jewish area of London, the Jewish community had their own schools, shops, businesses, dress and all spoke either Yiddish or Hebrew, English always a second language. They prefer to keep themselves to themselves actually and do not wish to integrate, if you mean integrating as in adopting everything the English do as their own.

I doubt anyone anywhere is saying people shouldn't learn the language of the country in which they reside.
I don't very much it has anything to do with preventing radicalisation. Singling out Muslim women as being the reason for their children being radicalised is wrong, saying if these Muslim mothers spoke English they could prevent radicalisation of their children is scapegoating of already vulnerable members of society. And what about the fathers? Do they not have any responsibility towards bringing up their children?

It's appalling to me that we are according to some on this thread completely lose our identity to apparently prove we aren't about to run off to join a terrorist group somewhere. I'm never going to be considered a fully integrated English person anyway, as my skin colour doesn't fit. I'm third generation British, I speak flawless English, hold down a job, etc etc I am Muslim tho and clearly of an ethnic minority the latter itself means I will never be considered English. To be told I need to anglicise my name and pretend to be Jane Smith to appease those who think I am not integrated is unreasonable, those who expect me to do that will never be appeased anyway.

I do hope the above isn't a generalisation about all Jews in the UK as it isn't my experience of Jewish life at all through the Jews that I know. I am married to a Jew and his grandparents anglicised his name, his parents spoke English as their first language, didn't mind their son 'marrying out' without me converting and actually had some concerns when their daughter's daughter went to a faith school as they thought it was a bit limiting that she was only mixing with other Jews and not more widely. But she is getting that wider experience now through university and work at least.

not at all Lora, the Jewish community I lived amongst live as I describe. I don't actually think it's wrong and it's not a criticism.

It is very unreasonable to be expected to anglicise your name, if someone wants to do it, no problem, but being told to do it to prove you are integrated, is very unreasonable, it's insanity, what next to prove we are integrated? Where does it end?

I think Maajid Nawaz's article here www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/21/what-david-cameron-gets-right-about-terrorism.html
is salient to this debate. Since he states he was an Islamist extremist himself (turned Lib Dem candidate iirc and now a counter-extremist) his opinion is interesting. I quote from the article:

"Importantly, such a financial status and developing better language skills would aid women to connect authoritatively to their often-alienated second-generation offspring, who have proven more susceptible than the first generation to extremist recruitment...In my own life and journey through extremism, the one voice that kept nagging at me throughout, and eventually helped pull me from the brink, was my own British-educated and fully integrated mother’s."

I also read a horrific article about a week ago of a man who killed his mother because she kept begging him to leave isis and flee Syria with her.

I think threatening to deport Muslim women if they aren't taught English will be counter productive and is divisive and singling out a vulnerable part of society who do not have a voice. Who will be taking care of these vulnerable young children when their mothers are deported?

Everyone should be given an opportunity to learn English, and the law should be the same for everyone regardless of religious affiliation and sex.

Again all the news articles of the people running off join daesh, and who are carrying out attacks are heavily converts not children of new immigrants who's parents don't speak English.

This is not solving any problems it is creating a whole host more.

fuzzy, of course the ultra orthodox jews are different but there are not many of them and they have never caused the rest of us any trouble and they are small part of English jewry. My comments were about the majority of jews and yes opera is often not in English.

Lord Weidenfeld (publisher) just died at nearly 100. I read his obituary yesterday. Last year he organised the second of his funded programs rescuing Christian children (as Christians had saved him a Jew from Germany when he was a child). He is a good example to us all.

We did though share a huge cultural heritage with German and other jews - the same interests in classical music, psychology and all the rest so it was integration of people who were European which is different.

Interestingly he was taken in by a Plymouth Brethren group - they are fascinating and like many fundamentalist muslims have a philosphy of women serving their husbands and separation from society. I wonder if fundamentalist muslims in the UK similar to the Brethren would take in Yazidi Christian children today? That would be the equivalent. Well they might as Islam like most religions requires people to help those who need help regardless of colour or creed.

The deportation element is ridiculous. It makes no sense and it will never happen.

Deo thanks for highlighting Lord Weidenfeld's story.

Sonya what makes you so sure deportations won't happen?

Extrapolation from current ability of home office to deport.

Beyond the legal problems I believe it would just look bad politically when you get down to cases against individuals.