Is it wrong to wear fur?

[fortyplus]

I have launched a fairly venomous attack on Xenia, glibly implying that 10,000 of you will agree with me. Here are some 'edited highlights' of what started it...

By Xenia on Sunday, 10 December, 2006 8:45:30 ...The girls have a huge range of interests (including intimate knowledge of London nightclubs.. I think one got into conversation with a famous chef at ChinaWhite one night when he ought to have been dealing with his children and being with his wife, rather than chatting up pretty blondes wearing fur?.)

By aliceband on Sunday, 10 December, 2006 8:55:19 PM
wearing fur?

By Xenia on Sunday, 10 December, 2006 9:00:13
Fur... of course. Surely from my posts you could tell my family would wear fur? 160,000 vicunas now roam Peru I think it is because they had been dying out but then were farmed for their fur. It saved the species and yet Blair bans fur farming. There is no hope but thankfully the planet is big and the world our oyster.
Later...
Did you mean I wasn't clear on fur ro you think we can wear leather shoes and murder plants but not something that looks sweet and fluffy (unless it's a calf in which case then it's okay to kill it but only if the skin is a by-product even though we no more need to eat meat than we need to wear skins)? Thankfully a week today I will be somewhere amongst many fur wearers and away from the warped collective British conscience.
By Queenmummy on Monday, 11 December, 2006 3:25:09 PMOne of these days Xenia will disappear up her own a**e and suffocate herself (hopefully before she bores us all to tears with the one track argument we are all fed up with listening to. Xenia - if you really are a well-rounded and interesting person, how about talking about something new besides than this dull and done to death SAHM/WOHM thing......

By fortyplus on Tuesday, 12 December, 2006 12:00:26 AM
I take back what I said about Xenia's views being to the left of Attila the Hun.

Abhorrence of the fur trade has nothing to do with whether animals look cute & fluffy, Xenia. It's all about the pain and suffering caused to the animals and stupid bitches wanting to look like prostitutes quite happy to wear the skin of a big cat that's been killed by having a red hot poker stuffed up its anus so as not to mark the skin.

You say that you've 'worked hard to fit in' with British society since coming to this country.

You haven't got a clue. Why do you think that out of 10,000 people on mumsnet the only one who consistently agrees with you is mohze?

Your smug, sanctimonious opinions are despised by every apparently decent person on this site.

Is it organically farmed fur?

I'd be concerned about being violently attacked by the PETA people. They once harrassed me going into a KFC in Denver and they were scary.

Xenia, free-range fur? Come on!

Most fur is not a humane product.

Thankfully the eu has banned the import of dog and cat fur from China and will soon ban seal

Hopefully karakul lambskin will follow

it is rather ironic me talking about this

Seal?! WTF?!

A blonde in a fur. Say no more.

Xenia 'So what other arguments do you have against fur apart from suffering? We can easily remove suffering from it.'

That's the principal argument for me - apart from loss of endangered species - though I'll assume that you would only wear farmed fur.

Please tell me how as a fur wearer, not a fur farmer, you can 'easily' remove suffering from fur farming?

expatinscotland - intrigued by the moral dilemma of wearing antique furs. If it was me I'd wear it and stick a badge on saying 'Granny gave it to me - it died 100 years ago!'

some fur is from animals clubbed to death or pulled from the mothers womb

we don't tend to eat from this kind of source

Xenia - one other thing - in case you think I'm a trendy lefty vegan - I eat meat and when I was a teenager I used to go hunting.

ParanoidSurreyHousewife - eh? what have I said? I haven't been here for days and days!

This is a nasty thread btw, are we all back at school?

I don't despise anyone on this site, Xenia or whoever.

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille - what gets pulled from the womb? That sounds hideous - I had no idea.

oliveoil - nasty subject = nasty thread

People who farm animals tend to love animals actually. Go to some farms. It's a very tender relationship you get between farmer and animal. A lot of you who have bought free range eggs which were factory farmed in that recent scandal did not know about the scam and I won't blame you for it or firebomb your house tonight .. .I'm nice like that... and the same problem exists for those who wear fur or buddihist worried about treading on flies. We do our best in life not to cause suffering.

Why should a rabbit farmed for fur be more hurt in the process than a rabbit farmed for the meat you can buy in Tesco? I don't think the pain to the animals is the right argument to use at all.

Someone else mentioned need... well that doesn't work either. We as little need meat as we need leather shoes and as for people who say leather on bikers fine but leather coats in ski resorts not fine it's just the standard leftist argument, isn't it? If you eat meat you should be prepared morally to kill animals, humanely of course.

but the idea o f farms is not the reality of fur breeding warehouses

these are not "farmers" they are mass killing houses on a completely different style of production

and where some people may buy a premium product at a premium price the mass market is not sustainable and cruelty free

and there is also the risk of animals in the wild in the same way as there is for aphrodisiacs in China and ivory

do you think Madonna oversaw the life & welfare of the chinchillas that were slaughtered for her coat ? I doubt it.

Are you stupid (yes I am cross) enough to think these animals are treated with any respect & dignity ? Do you think the animals clubbed to death in China are quivering with delight rather than agnony ?

Oh dear, I think your comments must be a joke, surely you can not be serious ??

this is a fur farm near leningrad please don't look if you are liable to feel squeamish

but it shows that farms are not pleasant and not like we expect from the word farm

I have friends who farm animals for meat - yes they love their animals. They insist on driving them to the slaughterhouse themselves as they feel that they have ultimate responsibility for the animals' welfare. They would prefer that a mobile slaughterhouse came to the farm so that the animals were spared the stress of travelling but this was vetoed by the EU some years ago.
I'm not saying that animals bred for meat suffer no cruelty - British meat still has an excellent reputation but has to travel 'live' to satisfy demand. Hence 2 day journeys in baking temperatures with only one stop for water. My friends won't sell animals at market for that reason - they have a Butcher on site and enjoy an enviable reputation locally.
For me fur is an entirely different issue. I do agree that a rabbit farmed for fur is no different from a rabbit farmed for meat. But most 'desirable' furs eg mink are taken from animals that have no place in captivity.
I certainly don't agree with the extremists who attack people and property to attack the fur trade and medical research.
In fact I'm sure that their cause is damaged by their activities - most right minded people equate protests against fur and animal testing with these extremists.
I would dearly love to see animal testing abolished, but only if human and animal health is not compromised as a result.
Legislation should be brought in to ban mink farming. I wouldn't have a problem with people wearing rabbit if it has been ethically kept, but it's not exactly desirable to the type of person who would sport a silver fox coat, is it?

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille - I won't look at it, but maybe it should be compulsory viewing for anyone wishing to wear fur?

Blair did ban mink farming, all fur farming unless it's an incidental by product I think about 4 years ago.

I can't see the difference based on breed though - why would you object to mink being humanely farmed but allow rabbits to be? (By the way not relevant to this debate but the last fur collar I was wearing was just rabbit).

Also none of you know how humanely the stuff in your sausages is really treated, do you or what happened to the animal on your leather shoes which are made in china. So why this distinction between the fluffy bit of the animal compared with the hard leather bit? And what about sheepskin rugs?

if you take lamb or beef for example they are not able to be bred for meat in factory conditions

your all arguing the same point you fucking weidos.

what the non fur brigade are saying Xenia - is how do you know its humanely farmed.

i cant believe anyone who isn't in teh ALF could possible argue against humanely farmed meat, leather, fur, or arseholes for that matter

how do you know it is?

the only point which may be a difference is this

whilst wearing fur humanley farmed with the "i was killed whilst laughing" lable on the inside one is promoting the acceptability of something that not so long ago was not.

therefore what humane farmers, the fashion industry and the purchasers should all demand from out govt is humanely farmed coats, shoes, and arseholes.

but wait - harken..... then you would only be able to buy humanely farmed chickens - freerange - or beef - whatever thats called is is freerange too? or organic? we had that argument i wasnt clear on the outcome - anyway

it can't be done

If xmeia buys her fur from humane farmers - then let her alone.

she can only vote with her feet - as you do everytime you go into waitrose and buy arsehole a la duck from the chilled cabinet - becuase mmmmmmmmmm and dont look for the ethical lable.

but custardo I think the point is that while some high end fur products may be humanely produced and sustainable..the vast majority is imported from appalling inhumane sources

It is about imports and cruelty and extinction and the spread of disease etc etc and corruption, criminality, exploitation ..a lot of the same things that apply to other markets like drugs

i know the argument - i can only report what i said in my post below - read it again - about people voting with their feet.

you can't ban humane fur for it representing the fur industry and promoting abhorrent practices.

the govt certainly arnt going to do it

if they did

is it really different from duck a la arsehole from waitrose?

see i am only repeating myself.

no its not different. and the govt arnt going to ban all food except organic and freerange - or lets face it people like me would effin starve becuase we cant afford it.

Xenia there is a huge difference between keeping mink and rabbits. Rabbits by nature live in groups so are not stressed by being kept together in a barn environment. Mink, on the other hand are extremely aggressive, solitary carnivores so must be kept in small individual cages to avoid killing each other. Of course the mink is well aware that it is surrounded by others so is perpetually stressed and constantly tries to attack those around it, but is frustrated in its attempts by the physical barrier. So mink 'farming' by definition will never be compassionate.
Personally I do know where my sausages come from - I buy them from my friend's farm - likewise all my beef, lamb, pork and turkey. They don't keep chickens so if I buy one I go for free range - maybe naively trusting the supermarket that if the label tells me that the bird has had a happy life then that is the case.
I do take your point about shoes, though.

Why would you wear fur when synthetic fur is so realistic?