Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Go on then - why should we replace Trident?

38 replies

SenoraPostrophe · 08/12/2006 15:49

...when

a) it costs such a silly amount
b) it would be in breach of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty
c) not renewing it might help us to persuade other countries to do the same
d) the danger these days is non-state specific terrorism, not nuclear war per se
e) apparently it isn't even a truly "independent deterrent" anyway because it relies on the US GPS system.

I am very worked up about this and plan to write to my MP, so would like to know any other arguments against, or some arguments in favour.

**this thread is dedicated to jessajam who was moaning about vapid threads. It might be too dull for her though.

OP posts:
fridascruffs · 08/12/2006 16:05

As a deterrent. Would the west and the USSR have gone to war if they hadn't had nuclear weapons? I think they would have. It's a bit too soon to say that threats these days come from non-state terrorism, I don't think we're all that threatened by terrorism really (I mean it might happen, they will kill people, but that doesn't win them any wars or really change thi gs for the terrorists does it). I think the biggest threat, apart from global warming, is likely to be China. And you need to have what they have to protect yourself.
All the western countries that don't have nukes are really relying on America to protect them, aren't they?

Stargazer · 08/12/2006 16:14

As a deterrent!! So the ones we already have, aren't a deterrent! I don't think we should replace Trident - it makes it a perfect excuse for all the other countries to develop nuclear weapons - and we wouldn't (don't) have a leg to stand on. Personally, I'm not relying on America - in fact I'm seriously worried about the US leadership.

SenoraPostrophe · 08/12/2006 16:25

it's possible that the US and the ussr would have gone to war if one or the other didn't have nuclear weapons, but unlikely imo because the country without nuclear weapons would have been far less un-neccessarily aggressive in its dealings with the other don't you think? and anyway remember we're talking about the ussr and the US. when was it ever likely that the Russians would go to war with the UK?

OP posts:
Callisto · 08/12/2006 16:35

Well Senora, I started a thread a couple of weeks ago about Trident and it got all of 10 responses. The thread on GB's pre-budget report isn't faring any better. But the thread on thread titles is on 300. Says it all really. MN news sucks atm.

ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 08/12/2006 16:39

Because we want to persevere and be one of the Big Boys...

Presumably once you are in the G* and have a permanent seat on the UN Security Council etc then it isn't that easy to turn round and say - actually , "we're happy not to play this game anymore - we're off to join the Swedes at playing Happy Families."

ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 08/12/2006 16:39

G8 not G*

motherinfurrierfestivefrock · 08/12/2006 17:10

Because making a sensible decision about lethal dangerous weapons that can't ever be used would be seen as 'capitulation' to the 'old left' and we can't have that, can we...

SenoraPostrophe · 08/12/2006 17:11

did you callisto? I looked but couldn't find one.

any advance on the deterrent argument? and for those who believe the deterrent argument to be true - what is protecting all of those other western countries that don't have nukes (like Canada, Germany, Spain etc) then?

OP posts:
BrummieOnTheRun · 08/12/2006 17:13

(prefer idea of joining G* actually )

whether other "rogue" states develop nukes or not (typical blokes, nukes = willy extensions. sorry, couldn't resist!), I'd have thought they are far less likely to use them than are radical groups who develop back-yard nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Jesus, kids are trying to develop these in the UK. Who are we going to point our nukes at? Manchester?

SenoraPostrophe · 08/12/2006 17:13

I'm thinking of joining CND. my previous connection to it is that my mum was interviewed on telly about why she left it, with me in the background.

OP posts:
ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 08/12/2006 17:16

Oooh - I'd be old enough to take the kids and hang out at Greenham Common. I was always vaguely envious of those who went.

ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 08/12/2006 17:17

I assume that Greenham Common still exists - or has it been bulldozed for houses?

SenoraPostrophe · 08/12/2006 17:20

it still exists, but they moved the nukes I think.

OP posts:
LittleSarah · 08/12/2006 17:59

Well I have nowt much intelligent to ad but I think no, we shouldn't, but we will I am certain.

UCM · 08/12/2006 18:48

As long as we have something that deflects/stops any nuclear bombs heading our way before they actually wipe us out then I don't see the need to have a bomb that will wipe out anyone else. I am probably being over simplistic in this......?

SenoraPostrophe · 08/12/2006 19:59

ucm - we don't have anything that will reliably stop nuclear weapons. does such a thing exist?

OP posts:
BrummieOnTheRun · 08/12/2006 20:30

yep, it's called more intelligent foreign policy I think.

ChristmasisComing · 08/12/2006 20:46

As usual the media has got it wrong. We are not replacing Trident - we are replacing the boats.

If they are to be in service in 10 years time (long after the existing ones should have been phased out) the design process needs to start now - hence the needs for a decision.

It should have happened 2+ years ago.

paulaplumpbottom · 08/12/2006 21:13

The only real deterent people have from launching nukes is knowing you'll probably get one right back.

MrsCurly · 08/12/2006 21:40

Alas Greenham Common is no more. The four Trident submarines and their missiles are baed at Faslane naval base, in Helensburgh, on the firth of Clyde.

There is a year long blockade of the base which started at the beginning of October, co-ordinated by a group called Faslane 365. They are trying to organise different affinity groups (eg lawyers, teacher, people from Manchester, etc) to demo outside the base every day for a year, and raise the profile.

The whole Trident issue makes me so hopping mad, it's so immoral and such an unbelievable waste of our money too. But what's really intriguing is why the issue is so untrendy. Why does no one want to get involved? Is it because CND is so passe? Do we just feel powerless after the failure of the opposition to the war in Iraq?

So who's up for a Mumsnet affinity group at Faslane for a day?

ChristmasisComing · 08/12/2006 21:57

So MrsCurly you want to put all those people at Faslane out of work then?

MrsCurly · 08/12/2006 22:34

Well "all those people at Faslane" aren't all involved in Trident. But I guess yes, broadly the logical conclusion of what I believe would mean the base might close or at least be downgraded.

I know what the impact would be - I don't live that far away, my brother in law worked there, others I know still do. But we can't do something so outrageously immorally wrong as renew our nuclear weapons just to save jobs in Helensburgh.

UCM · 08/12/2006 22:43

Oooops, went up to put DS to bed and fell asleep, missed corrie/easteneders as well......

Senorapostrophe, wasn't their some intergalactic missile stopper a few years back??? I probably have it very wrong

SenoraPostrophe · 11/12/2006 16:46

quite, MrsCurly.

we could in fact put all those people to work doing something far more useful for a fraction of the 27 billion or whatever Trident's renewal will cost.

UCM - I admit I'm not an expert either - there are missile to missile systems but as far as I know none that are foolproof (the American missile targettingf systrems can't even hit the proper target on the ground half the time - how are they going to hit something that's hurtling along at hundreds of miles an hour?)

christmasiscoming: same difference surely? the cost is still silly money, and the only purpose is to maintain our nuclear threat.

OP posts:
DominiConnor · 11/12/2006 19:01

Iraq was non-nuclear, didn't end well.
N.Korea has nukes, treated with kid gloves.
The only use of nukes has been on people thatdidn't have them, and that was twice.

All the above are of course attacks by the USA, which is not exactly likey next week, but over the next 25 years ? Countries have moved from friend to enemy far quicker than that. Hands up those who would cry inconsolably if Geogre Bush died ?
Think that might get mutual one day ?

Most of the money isn't warheads, it is the means to get them there. Some of this is dual use.
For a small fraction (say 5% or a billion) you could build big bombs that don't go anywhere, press a button and the bang destroys the world.
Much more reliable, but politicly difficult.

CND is passe because their basic position was "if the 4th biggest nuclear power disarms, the Soviet Union will be shamed into doing the same". This is easdily the dumbest political position of the last 50 years. Russia had explictly said it targetted non nuclear countries like Austrlia and Iceland, indeed people who plan nuclear war for a living, often had Iceland as the first country to get hit.
Germany, a non nuclear country was generally held to be either #1, or #2 on that list, by some combination of Russia, France and the USA.

Iran will be nucelar armed soon. If you had Iraq, and Russia as neighbours, and Israel down the road, you'd want nukes even if your leader wasn't a religious nutter.

Many countries have noted that Pakistan, India, N. Korea et al have acquired nukes and thus been "promoted" as notable powers and treated with respect.
Around half the countries on the planet have the technical means to build nukes in the next 5 years, they now have the incentive.
Not nice, not even slightly, but in the absence of an anti nuclear defence, having better weapons is the least of the several evils.