Oh dear, Boris grasps wrong end of stick

[UnquietDad]

My mother mentioned she'd be sending me this article, which is always rather ominous - she usually does that to "win" some argument or other, with passages out of context triumphantly underlined or highlighted. (Does anyone else's mother do this? Or is it just mine??)

So I thought I'd better pre-empt her by looking it up.

here it is

Boris talks sense 90% of the time, and indeed does so for about 90% of this article, but then spoils it all by going off into some half-baked non-sequiturs about religion. I hope he doesn't really believe the guff he talks here about it. My feeling is that he doesn't.

He surely comes up with a partial answer earlier in the piece: that they, and other boys like them, are lacking the moral guidance of strong paternal discipline - i.e. a father figure in the here and now, rather than one in the imagined Hereafter.

Contrast Shaun Bayley's article on the same issue, which manages to come up with strong solutions without ever mentioning religion.

but why, nearlythree? Give faith a try - which faith? There are bloomin' hundreds of them. And who says we've tried secularism? From where I stand, it's still struggling to assert itself against a tide of supernatural mumbo-jumbo - some days I think it's like the Enlightenment never happened.

Yes, DW did enjoy Alpha, but it didn't change her. She enjoyed being able to go in and ask questions but was eventually quite frustrated by the circular debate. Nice food apparently!

I work in an area of high social deprivation and it's attendant issues of crime and violence.

If fact I have a student who's father rang this morning to say he won't be in all week as he's in hospital after being stabbed. Most of them are extremly devout muslims or evangalical christians, it just doesn't stop them from knifing each other for 'dissing' their mothers.

Some moral framework their religion gives them.

Okay, let's try it your way. Let's get rid of the mumbo-jumbo spouters like me. Obviously you then lose a huge number of the youth outreach groups, the drop-in centres, the soup kitchens, the mum and toddler groups, the debt counselling centres...But I am sure the local authorities will step in to plug the gaps.

I've left the CofE, but the one thing to say in its favour is that it never abandons the poor. On estates where even the post deliveries don't happen and bus routes have been scrapped, there is always some poor sod stuck in a crumbling vandalised church, burying the old but never marrying or baptising, yet opening his or her church to those in need, running the groups that the community lacks, often with only a handful of helpers.

Why can't it be that secularism and faith co-exist? Surely everything needs to be tried? And in schools secularism does have a hold, and is failing.

(Glad your dw enjoyed Alpha, unquietdad, not my bag at all - I'd get so angry!)

slug, that's religion, not faith. It's just lip service to something.

"And in schools secularism does have a hold, and is failing."

I'm interested to know how you think it has a hold, and if it does, in what way this constitutes failure.

Why is it wrong to teach about Christianity as a belief, in the same way that we teach children the very interesting stories of Greek and Egyptian mythology?

of course lots of good people run soup kitchens and hostels and the like. Many of them do so out of no religious conviction whatsoever.

But for many people faith isn't a myth. As I said before, why can't the two co-exist? I would like to see all schools as multi-faith, including secularism, because that is the only hope we have of our dcs understanding each other in the future. How ever much you might wish to, you cannot erase either organised religion or belief.

I know that many humanists reach out to others. But the gap that would be left if faith groups disappeared would be enormous.

For many people, Isis and Osiris weren't myths, and nor were Zeus and Hera, and nor were Thor and Freya. If you believe in a Christian God, you have presumably consigned these figures to mythology in your own mind. 99% of the gods which humanity has invented are no longer believed in and their attendant belief systems are regarded, rightly, as having inspired great art and culture and interesting stories which are still worth studying. In 2000 years the same may well have happened to the God of Christianity.

It's very hard for a person of faith to accept this, I know, but there really is no reason at all to have a religious meta-framework for a framework of moral instruction.

Would multi-faith include Scientologists, those who define themselves as Jedi Knights, worshippers of the Great Spaghetti Monster , fairy-believers, astrologers and those for whom Star Trek is a religion?

I accept all you say. But try to understand that for some of us faith is what underpins our life. Try to respect that. Of course I know that you don't need religion for morality. But for some it is the reason. For some, faith is what has turned their lives around. I know you don't like it, but you can't change it.

I was brought up in an incredibly fundimentalist form of Christianity; it was very close to being a cult. I escaped when I was 22 after managing to get myself kicked out for the heinous crime of having a boyfriend (who is now dh, btw)!

Having said all that, they recruited a lot of kids who were "hooligans" or whatever phrase you want to use, and many of their parents.

Seemed a lot of them quite liked the structure of the "church" (no pop music, minimal TV, not allowed non-believing friends, dressing modestly at all times, not allowed chinese food because it has a symbol of a dragon on it (wtf? but true) oh and of course, parents allowed to beat their kids with a belt). There was certainly a very low re-offending rate.... maybe Boris has something there!!

And no please don't lay into me religious people, I'm not saying all religions are like this, mine was a weird exception!!!

I'm just using my example to say that yes, of course religion might help, lots of things might "help"; ffs capital punishment would "help" (they wouldn't do it again, eh ) although I think it is totally wrong, but shouldn't we look for a solution outside of religion?

Especially as there are so many out there with so many different views on discipline and the like.

Surely we should be looking for solutions inside and outside religion - wherever they are found?

(Bloody awful lot you were in with though! )

I do try to respect it, nearlythree, but you have to understand that it's like trying to grasp why people believe in fairies, or astrology, or tealeaf reading. I don't say this to insult anyone's religion - it's just that I treat everything with the same degree of healthy scepticism until there is evidence. I don't think you really answered my questions.

Sorry, what do you want be to answer?

me to answer

Nearlythree, serious question (and I'm not questioning the benefits of faith vs religion): Don't people have to seek out faith for themselves? And normally they do that having recognised a need for it in their life, be it for support, comfort, etc.

I'm not sure how you help these wayward kids find faith and keep it separate from a recruitment campaign for one institutional religion or another.

Have you consigned previous Gods (Greek, Roman, Norse) to mythology in your own mind? If so, doesn't this involve a great amount of scepticism in abandoning 99% of the belief systems which various eras of humanity used to hold sacred? Why is thre Christian God any different?

Would "multi-faith" mean including all faiths, no matter how wacky? Scientologists, those who define themselves as Jedi Knights, worshippers of the Great Spaghetti Monster, fairy-believers, astrologers and those for whom Star Trek is a religion?

Need to log off now, will reply later!

I believe in God but am sceptical about religion. I believe in Christ because of the way he lived his life - I find him an inspiration. Action speak louder than words and leading by example is probably one thing that will inspire some of these kids to turn their life around. The problem is, they are not exposed to enough of these positive examples. I want to inspire my DTS through how I live my life but I want them to be inspired by others too and that is why I am keen for them to attend Sunday School, join the Scouts etc.

The troubled kids need inspiration in their lives that will motivate them to aspire to something better than where they are now.

Sorry - I was unable to close my mouth for some time after reading Boris' opening, which managed to suggest that it is middle class to feel anger at murder.....

However having reclaimed the ability to breathe, I found the energy a bit wasted reading this article. What does he say that is in any way new, or rigoruosly thought out? Bus stop convo in a posh accent!

Many faith-based groups do excellent community based projects, offering constructive activity for young people, and imo this is an excellent way for people to put their faith into practice. I'd be very surprised, however, if the decline of religion in schools is a cause of violent behaviour. I could well see that a decline in family structure, parenting, role models and consideration for others is co-incident with stopping a family habit of going to church. Of course young people who have a faith may be, on average, happy, because families that are able to maintain routine and discipline to turn up for chuirch, or uphold other forms of worship or good works are families who are also able to give children structure, purpose, family activity etc etc. However it is achieved, it's these factors that make a difference - and a youth club is a good start!

I also think Boris needs to look at Thatcher's legacy, where money and material goods became the 'muts have's', now, and black youths (in particular) were allowed to under-achieve in schools, ignored, passed over and sidelined. They now have children of their own.

I agree with Speedymamma about the need for inspiration.

Nearlythree, I think the trouble is that religion can't provide a standardised solution.

There are so many different religions, and even within those religions there are different subsets with different opinions (from the "spare the rod & spoil the child" of my experience, to more liberal Christian views espoused by others).

So I think, that if we look for a solution outside of religion, we've a better chance of applying it to a larger number of people, iyswim.

Ah, but therein lies the problem Mossletoe. You quoted "spare the rod, spoil the child" which comes from Proverbs which is in the Old Testament, which chronicles Jewish history. Christian beliefs are based on Christ's teachings which are in the New Testasment and that is where is where the misunderstanding arises amongst different Christian groups.

Christ said "It was said of old, an eye for an eye but I say now you must turn the other cheek". Christ established a more progressive moral code that was built on love, understanding and forgiveness. The fundamental Christian groups select different parts of the Bible to suit the doctrine they want to espouse and mix up Old testament doctrine with that from the New Testament. The result is ambiguity and confusion and this leaves non-believers non the wiser of what the true Christian message is really all about.

Speedymama, I agree with you in that fundimentalists (and many people of differing religious persuasions) take the bits they want to make the points they want.

I certainly believe many of Christ's teachings can be inspirational, but I don't think that you need to be "religious" to find them such.

And I believe that there are lots of figures who can be inspirational, whether real, fictional, mythical, whatever. (My mate's dd looks up to Doctor Who!)

And having said that, anything can be used for people's own ends. So for example, take the idea of turning the other cheek. Telling that to me when I was constantly bullied at school just meant I ended up with very sore cheeks (was a little worse than that tbh but don't want to bring down this thread by being miserable ).

(Don't worry, I'm not having a go, I am sure that most parents religous or not would get straight onto the school and "have a word"!)

I'm an atheist, and my ethics and values are very much based on Christ's teachings - and those of others (Gandhi: "an eye for an eye will have the whole world blind!")

Blu, Ghandi based his protest on Christ's teachings, as I am sure you know. He obviously never felt the need to convert though - as he once said, 'The whole world would be Christian if only Christians were more like their Christ.'

Mossletoe, a standardised solution isn't going to work. A secular one wouldn't work for me, nor would an Evangelical Christian one. We need a diversity of options. After all, the vast majority of people in the census claimed allegience to one faith or another.

Unquietdad, re the 'myth' thing...unfortunately I'm a woolly relativist in many ways. SO although I don't recognice (for example) the Gods of ancient Greece, I have talked to those who find praying to those and others as a way of understanding their view of God. Doesn't seem that different from me praying to God as Father, Mother, Shepherd, Lord, Creator, Light...whatever my needs might be.

Some beliefs people have seem very damaging. But as Chesterton said, the problem is that when you remove God people don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything.

Hope that explains a bit, I have ds wailing in my arms!

Don't believe in nothing? What kind of grammar was that??? Anyway, you get my point.