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are you scared of the mentally ill..and would you vote to keep them off the streets?

159 replies

zippitippitoes · 03/12/2006 19:07

..the mental health Bill are you keen to see it enacted or not?

sunday times and it's mentally scarred leader

OP posts:
foxinsocks · 07/12/2006 22:09

sorry edam, only saw your response now

I agree with you (re the legislation) but do think that the mental health services need not only a funding boost but also a major rethink because lots is going wrong at the moment. I can see what this legislation was trying to do and I have sympathy with what they suggest for those at the upper end of the mental health illness spectrum but I can see why human rights groups would want to oppose it.

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 09:24

Ripeberry

Sorry to read your story. Is there any kind of support that your dad feels he is getting?

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 18:55

just bumping in case ripeberry is around

edam · 09/12/2006 08:57

That's a great summary Glenn, 'permanently on parole for a crime you haven't committed.'

Fox, agree with you about funding. And staffing, too.

Ripeberry, so sorry to hear about your mum. FWIW I think severe manic depression is bloody scary (have known a few people affected but luckily not as badly as your mum). Have you contacted any of the big mental health charities? SANE or any members of the Mental Health Alliance? They might be able to give you some advice about your father's rights - I'm sure he can refuse to have your mother dumped at home just because the hospital want rid.

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 09/12/2006 09:35

thanks edam

this is an issue which I feel very strongly emotional about and it is difficult to explain why it feels this bill is going to be very nasty in some respects for those who are survivors or users of mental health services.

Once enacted I think it would be a very powerful means of affecting many lives and a lot of sadness and despair will ensue.

The principle of legislation should never be to excessively over compensate with a law to curtail the rights of the many because a very few
present a danger.

deckthehillswithboughsofmummy · 09/12/2006 10:10

I hope FIl doesn't see that article as it would cause him distress and set him back. He and the rest of the family pleaded for help for him as he was sufering from severe depression. No one listened till he took an overdose. Luckily they were able to get him sorted out and he is currently in a small psych unit. He has mental health issues and hate for anyone to come and see him in 'the looney bin' we are looking forward to getting him home sometime soon as my children want to see more of grampy.

Kevlarhead · 11/12/2006 19:08

First in the Guardian, then at badscience.net

"For serious violence, occurring at 1% a year... you inaccurately finger your potential perpetrator 97 times out of a hundred. Will you preventively detain 97 people to prevent three events?"

Crystal Balls? and Positive Predictive Values

December 9th, 2006 at 11:21 am (bad science, statistics)

This week, after a major government report, we heard that one murder a week is committed by someone with psychiatric problems. Psychiatrists should do better, the newspapers told us, and prevent more of these murders.

It?s great to want to reduce psychiatric violence. It?s great to have a public debate about the ethics of preventive detention (for psychiatric patients and other potential risk groups, perhaps). Before you career off and have that vital conversation, you need to understand the maths of predicting very rare events.

Let?s take the very concrete example of the HIV test. The figures here are ballpark, for illustration only. So: what do we measure about a test? Statisticians would say the HIV blood test has a very high ?sensitivity? of 0.999. That means that if you do have the virus, there is a 99.9% chance that the blood test will be positive. Statisticians would also say the test has a high ?specificity? of 0.9999 - so if a man is not infected, there is a 99.99% chance that the test will be negative. What a smashing blood test.

But if you look at it from the perspective of the person being tested, the maths gets slightly counterintuitive. Because weirdly, the meaning, the predictive value, of a positive or negative test that an individual gets, is changed in different situations, depending on the background rarity of the event that the test is trying to detect. The rarer the event in your population, the worse the very same test becomes.

Let?s say the HIV infection rate amongst high risk men in a particular area is 1.5%. We use our excellent blood test on 10,000 of these men and we can expect 151 positive blood results overall: 150 will be our truly HIV positive men, who will get true positive blood tests; and one will be the one false positive we could expect, from having 10,000 HIV negative men being tested with a test that is wrong one time in 10,000. So, if you get a positive HIV blood test result, in these circumstances your chances of being truly HIV positive are 150 out of 151. It?s a highly predictive test.

But now let?s use the same test where the background HIV infection rate in the population is about one in 10,000. If we test 10,000 people, we can expect two positive blood results overall. One from the person who really is HIV positive; and then one false positive that we could expect, again, from having 10,000 HIV negative men being tested with a test that is wrong one time in 10,000.

Suddenly, when the background rate of an event is rare, even our previously brilliant blood test becomes a bit rubbish. For the two men with a positive HIV blood test result, in this population where one in 10,000 have HIV it?s only 50:50 odds on whether you really are HIV positive.

Now let?s look at violence. The best predictive tool for psychiatric violence has a ?sensitivity? of 0.75, and a ?specificity? of 0.75. Accuracy is tougher, predicting an event in humans, with human minds, and changing human lives. Let?s say 5% of patients seen by a community mental health team will be involved in a violent event in a year. Using the same maths as we did for the HIV tests, your ?0.75″ predictive tool would be wrong 86 times out of 100. For serious violence, occurring at 1% a year, with our best ?0.75″ tool, you inaccurately finger your potential perpetrator 97 times out of a hundred. Will you preventively detain 97 people to prevent three events? And for murder, the extremely rare crime in question, occurring at one in 10,000 a year among patients with psychosis? The false positive rate is so high that the best test is almost entirely useless. I?m just giving you the maths on rare events. What you do with it is a matter for you.

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 11/12/2006 19:33

Kevlar

I think you agree then that the science/maths chimes with what i said earlier

"The principle of legislation should never be to excessively over compensate with a law to curtail the rights of the many because a very few
present a danger. "

The interesting question beyond saving hypothetically members of the public/family/community from risk is whether being able to enforce medication on certain groups of people is a "good thing".

When it is a good thing it's a very good thing and when it's bad it's horrid. IMO.

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 11/12/2006 19:34

that is a good thing for the individual being enforced.

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