Children driven to school by their mothers will be turned away.

[iWantToBeAlone]

Standard link.

It's an Orthodox Jewish school in north London. I hope that law steps in, I don't see how this can be legal.

So anything could be hidden away amongst them. Doubt a social worker would get in! Do they use nhs services?

Howabout, I completely agree.

My friend teaches in a school like this in North London and it's a state school. She's the only non-Jewish teacher and kids come and look through the door of her classroom out of curiosity. The children aren't allowed to use the internet or watch TV and text books are censored.

if they aren't actually harming anyone?

But they are. Granted it isn't physical harm but it is showing the children that women are worth less than men and have to listen to what men say and tell them to do.
It is harming their perception of gender equality, the place of women in a 21st century western society and their view of how the rest of the world views them.
Yes, unlike FGM the women here are adults who have 'chosen' to join this religion. And yes it is wrong for those of us outside this faith to look at at and tell people they are wrong. Just like we wouldn't like anyone from any faith different to our own telling us to follow their rules.

I used to work for a Belzer family (the Chassidic sect named in the article). The wife drove, though not often - she didn't need to. There wasn't an eruv at the time but the wife also went out on Shabbat if somebody else was around to mind the baby (because pushing a pushchair on Shabbat in a public place with no eruv is a no-no - yeah, I know it sounds bonkers, but it makes sense to those who live by those rules). The wife also felt able to have a go at the husband if she thought he'd got something wrong.

When my mother came to collect me to go home one weekend, the DC were all over her and my mother came away impressed by what a lovely woman their mother was. I lived in their house for a summer, looked after the DC (lovely kids), and kept in touch for several years afterwards. I had proper conversations with both of the parents - the husband as well as the wife. As a family they used Yiddish a lot, but conversations around me, about me etc were always in English (except one phone conversation where I knew I was being talked about and understood enough Yiddish to understand it!: 'She's so good with the children.') When I left I had taught the DC the joy of a fried egg with an intact yolk - 'bubble eggs!' - which the mother, who had always made omelettes, was now obliged to cook for them.

It's true that it is very hard to leave that kind of life, after that sort of quite sequestered upbringing, and those who do get out tend to see themselves as having 'escaped' and can be pretty angry about it. That said, the couple I worked for both seemed pretty happy with their lives and each other, and I have heard of people who have opted into it, as adults.

I'm not Jewish, by the way. Those are just my own experiences.

'Yes, unlike FGM the women here are adults who have 'chosen' to join this religion'

I would argue strongly that no-one who was born into a particular religion, especially not one as restrictive as this one, has chosen it for themselves. The penalties (ostracism for example) involved in attempting to free your mind or your self from this kind of control are so severe that leaving the religion is utterly unthinkable for many

Do they use nhs services?
Yes, of course they do: the woman I worked for had a huge respect for the NHS after one of her DC had been vv ill. Her friend was being treated for PND. etc.

I would argue strongly that no-one who was born into a particular religion, especially not one as restrictive as this one, has chosen it for themselves.
I agree, that it why I wrote 'chosen'.

Why did they need to be banned? It would seem like the women of this sect could choose not to drive if that concurred with their understanding of the faith.

mehs I have also worked with Jewish families in the way you have

This sect is very different

What a PITA for the women involved. Presumably they all live close enough to walk, but if they were running late, on their way to somewhere else like work, for example and they wanted to drive... Presumably they would have to get a man to drive them, or get a taxi. When their own car is available!

But listening to the views on Radio 4 today, one man said that women belong in the home and shouldn't be out of the house anyway. Makes me wonder if the women do drive at all.

So some women have been rebelling against the norms of the sect and driving, and now a stop is being put to that little freedom. It seems to me that if the women in question don't like it, they should get together and do a mass turn-up at school in their cars - the school would then be faced with excluding loads of dch at once. But I doubt that will happen - if you live in this kind of community you accept the rules.

The point is not about women driving so much as about dch being excluded for their parents' actions. Seems to me that how they get to school should be pretty irrelevant.

MehsMum, I believe it is part if my duty to society to educate my children about all faiths and none and this allows them to grow up with respect, tolerance and the ability to make up their own mind when reaching adulthood as to whether they would like to take up a particular faith. Bringing up children in such a closed off community is at best, irresponsible IMO.

Yes and can I just say that I've had reason to visit a high achieving Jewish school in Manchester where everyone was welcome and the atmosphere was nothing remotely like this. This is not about being Jewish at all.

The people which we are talking about are not the average Jewish believers, it's the extremists. However where I live, it's a very real, common issue. When I was heavily pregnant I asked a young man on the bus if he could move up so I could sit down, he turned his head and wouldn't look at me, another lady said it's because he is Jewish and you aren't so he won't communicate with you at all, this elderly lady offered me her seat instead. I found it astonishing that despite choosing to live in London, one of the most multicultural cities in the country, they go to such measures to live seperately

I don't even mean that in a racist go home sentiment, just that if you want to create your own comminity, there are quieter places to do it than central London!

That's ridiculous... He must communicate with non Jews.... Buying a ticket etc

In dh's large organisation (vague) they have on two occasions racially discriminated against Orthodox Jews during interview and refused to even consider them for the job. On both occasions it was because neither man would shake the hand of dh's boss. One even explained it was in case she was menstuating. Of course other reasons were given but she told DH there was no way she was prepared to have someone in her client facing team who would refuse to shake hands with a woman.
It's depressing that people who are not at all racist end up racially discriminating against job applicants due to such silly hard and fast practices 2000yrs out of date.

And there's plenty of Jews/Muslims/Christians/Hindus and atheists happily working alongside each other in that large firm already.

'On both occasions it was because neither man would shake the hand of dh's boss. One even explained it was in case she was menstuating. '

How utterly disgusting. Well done for DH's boss for refusing to tolerate this kind of pure nonsense. Women really are the lowest of the low in some of these people's eyes and it must be challenged

Yes, unlike FGM the women here are adults who have 'chosen' to join this religion'

If someone attempted to argue that DV victims should just leave their abuser, and after the first assault it's their own fault for staying, there would quite properly be an absolute MN riot and the person that advanced that argument would be quite properly torn to pieces.

And yet, women born into cult-like sects have usually been indoctrinated in that cult-like sect for a lot longer than a DV victim has known their abuser, experiences limits on their connections to the would outside the cult-like sect that are far more restrictive than even the most controlling of DV perpetrator and (having often been denied education, employment and social contact) would have to reenact a modern-day version of Caspar Hauser in order to leave the cult-like sect.

It is almost unheard of for people to join ultra-orthodox Jewish sects. The women subject to this control are usually born into it. It's child abuse, and the adult consequences of child abuse.

'It's child abuse, and the adult consequences of child abuse'

Absolutely agree and I wish it was spoken about in these terms more often

Problem is, Lotta, she was breaking the law. Which is ridiculous.

The whole set up sounds seedy

In dh's large organisation (vague) they have on two occasions racially discriminated against Orthodox Jews during interview and refused to even consider them for the job. On both occasions it was because neither man would shake the hand of dh's boss. One even explained it was in case she was menstuating.

So that counts as racial discrimination even though it's a religious rule? And would the fact they are committing sex discrimination be allowed?

The trouble is I suspect that nothing can be done as these women haven't actually been banned from anything . If they got in their car in Stamford Hill the Met Police aren't going to arrest them. If they wanted to send their kid to school, then Haringey Council would be legally obliged to find them a place. They are not being persecuted by the State, there aren't facing any legal consequences or sanctions.

They 'voluntarily' (and yes, I use that word advisedly) belong to a club which says that if you want to be a member then you have to follow strict rules. Or you leave that club and don't get to use its facilities such as private religious schools. This may have huge social consequences for you, but you are not being compelled legally.

Yes, 'choice' in this case is like the battered women who 'chooses' not to leave her abuser. But what can you do? You can't tell the sect not to issue edicts - they can 'ban' all they like. I could issue a 'ban' on people wearing green hats right now and it would have the same legal force - ie none.

Yes, religion isn't good for women, and the more conservative the religion the worse it is. But unless you go as far as saying religious women in the UK are minors with no agency and must have decisions made for them by the state (like Jehovahs Witnesses children whose parents would happily see them die rather than have a blood transfusion), then you have to accept that they are voluntarily submitting to severe restrictions.

iwanttobealone, yes, Judaism is considered a race and therefore employment discrimination against someone based solely on the merits of that race, in this case a religious belief, is considered discriminatory.

It really wasn't because he was Jewish though. I know her and she really couldn't give a rat's arse what anyone's beliefs are as long as they are prepared to work all the hours in the day and make money.