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Original poster

Cake is a human right - county court in Belfast holds it is illegal to refuse to make 'Support Gay Marriage' cake

69 replies

InnTheJungle · 19/05/2015 12:24

It seems a bit of a dubious ruling really.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32791239

'The judge said Ashers is "conducting a business for profit", it is not a religious group.'

Lots of business are run for profit, but it doesn't mean they must maximise profits at all costs.

It was held that the bakery discriminated against the purchaser who wanted 'Support Gay Marriage' printed on a cake.

Which is a political slogan which either gays or heterosexuals could use.

I would feel more comfortable with the ruling had they simply refused to make, say, a standard wedding cake for a gay couple.

Although of course gay marriage is illegal in Northern Ireland.

I am not really clear what the boundaries are here, if you are an ISIS supporter can you go and get a pro-jihad cake made as part of your religious rights?

OP posts:
Isitmebut · 19/05/2015 12:50

In an Ireland looking for anti gay reforms, this proves that if gay, you can have your cake and eat it.

I'm thinking that this is similar to the hotel case where a gay couple were refused a room on Christian religious grounds, and kinda got out of hand, destroying that business.

Personally I think all should have a choice if on religious grounds, but draws a lot of troll online flack - but I've said my piece, 'I'm hetro and proud' and have no objections to consenting adults doing anything that makes them happy - so leave ME alone. lol

Original poster
InnTheJungle · 19/05/2015 12:53

Well the couple wanting to share a room were a little different in that they weren't making a political statement.

OP posts:
ginagslovechild · 19/05/2015 12:58

Personally I think it's a bloody disgrace. Ashers have time and again said they have no problem making cakes for gay people, or indeed gay weddings for that matter.
It was the message on the cake that they couldn't agree to produce, they are against gay marriage and that is a religious conviction that is shared by alot of people, and in actual fact gay marriage isn't legal in NI so basically they have no right to hold an opinion on an activity that has no legality.

So much for freedom of speech and religious views.
I just hope people rally around them at this time.
I also want to point out I am in no way anti-gay or anti gay marriage in fact but this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Enb76 · 19/05/2015 13:01

I think that the ethos of the bakery is wrong but... I really don't think it should be illegal to operate your business on your own ethical grounds. If it was a pro-nazi party wanting a cake saying "support the aryans" no-one would bat an eyelid that a bakery refused.

The B&B story is different in that they were refused after the B&B had already accepted the booking.

So, I think the bakery were wrong to be against gay marriage but I also think they should be allowed to be wrong. It shouldn't be illegal to hold an opinion and run your private business along those lines unless you actively infringe upon another's rights - in this case the offended couple could quite easily have gone to another bakery, or had the cake made and written the slogan themselves.

Isitmebut · 19/05/2015 13:01

We refused to let our daughters have boyfriends stay overnight under our roof (in case the boyfriends got too comfortable) - I didn't care two-hoots about their politics.

Isitmebut · 19/05/2015 13:03

The cake shop TOOK the order, then days(?) later, politely refused the order.

ginagslovechild · 19/05/2015 13:06

I think the bakery were wrong to be against gay marriage

That is their belief though, in their eyes gay marriage is wrong because it goes against biblical teaching. That's like saying Muslims are wrong for not eating pork.

Of course it can be argued that their belief is up to their own interpretation but most evangelical Christians that I know in NI would agree that gay marriage is not right.

SeekingTheSun15 · 19/05/2015 13:10

I think gay marriage should be an absolute right but this is ridiculous.

The law in NI doesn't support gay marriage yet this was upheld as discriminatory. How is that even possible? If I was a baker, I'd refuse to make any cake spouting a political pov. I'd gladly make a cake celebrating the marriage of Pete and Dave though.

prh47bridge · 20/05/2015 10:23

I think the courts have got this one wrong but I am not surprised. It seems the courts are intent on creating a hierarchy of rights where the rights of the LBGT community trump the rights of others with religious beliefs (unless they happen to be Islamic beliefs). I understand the judge's point that the business is not a religious group but I wonder if the decision would have been the same if it had been a baker run by Moslems.

The baker did not refuse to serve the customer because of his sexual orientation. They refused to put a particular message on the cake. I'm sure the customer could have found another baker who would have been happy to supply a cake with the required message. In my view that is what the customer should have done.

FarelyKnuts · 20/05/2015 10:35

But they've no problem making Halloween cakes right? This doesn't contradict with their sky fairy deeply held religious convictions? Because it should, being good Christians an all.

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 20/05/2015 10:39

"support the aryans", "support Nazis" or "ISIS is right" - is offensive

Support Gay Marriage" is not

Hoppinggreen · 20/05/2015 12:44

I support Gay marriage but I appreciate not everyone does so I am behind the Bakery here.
They were happy to make this man a cake of his choosing but they couldn't put this particular slogan on it and I do suspect that they were set up by activists as well.
A Jewish Bakery shouldn't be expected to put a swastika on a cake and a Muslim one shouldn't be expected to put a pig on one should they not want to. This has been likened to refusing to serve a black man but it's not, it's like refusing to make a cake with a " black power" symbol on or a BNP themed one for right wingers. These are all legal things that some find offensive but others don't.
People are allowed to hold views that you don't agree with as long as they are not illegal and they don't force them on others or express them in an offensive way.
These people obviously feel very strongly about their faith as it hasn't been an easy 12 months for them and I also think that this case has done Gay Rights no favours at all in Ireland.

Original poster
InnTheJungle · 20/05/2015 12:44

'"Support Gay Marriage" is not offensive'

I don't think you get to decide what is offensive. I personally think polygamy is offensive, but in some places it is quite normal.

OP posts:
KatharineClifton · 20/05/2015 12:51

How can the way a person is born be 'offensive'?

Good on the law! We shouldn't get to pick or choose whether we are discriminatory or not.

Hoppinggreen · 20/05/2015 12:52

How about them being expected to ice " God does not exist" on a cake?
Perfectly legal and not offensive to the majority.
Some Christians ( wrongly IMHO) genuinely believe that Gay marriage is wrong. They don't choose to be offended by it, they are. These people were not actively campaigning against Gay Marriage they just didn't want to support the campaign themselves.
As a business surely they have some discretion over the products they make and are associated with?

FlaviaAlbia · 20/05/2015 12:56

Actually, the activist in question is a friend if a friend and that's the bakery he used a lot so not a setup.

I agree with the ruling.

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 20/05/2015 12:56

How can 2 people who love each other getting married offend you?

KatharineClifton · 20/05/2015 12:57

As a business surely they have some discretion over the products they make and are associated with?

They do. They have the discretion to act within the law of the land they are operating in. They have the discretion not to discriminate. Like any good Christian actually would do.

Hoppinggreen · 20/05/2015 12:58

Apologies if I'm wrong about it being a set up then, I thought I heard that on Sky News.

MinimumPayment · 20/05/2015 12:59

"I don't think you get to decide what is offensive"

I agree OP, so why do you get to decide what's offensive?

I'm very disappointed in this ruling. I absolutely support gay marriage and don't find the requested cake offensive. However, I believe 100% that anyone should be allowed to turn away business they don't want for any reason. I also think it's outrageous that anyone should be forced to produce a cake/painting/garden/piece of furniture that they don't want to.

Original poster
InnTheJungle · 20/05/2015 13:14

"How can 2 people who love each other getting married offend you?"

I know someone who married a 12-year-old in Indonesia, it offended me very much.

OP posts:
sliceofsoup · 20/05/2015 13:18

I am glad the ruling turned out the way it did.

IMO the point here is that anyone is entitled to hold whatever beliefs they like, but once they enter into a business, they have to abide by the laws of the country. In this case, the anti discrimination laws were applicable.

Ones religious beliefs cannot and do not cancel out the law of the country.

Gay marriage may be illegal in NI currently, but campaigning for a change in a law is not illegal, nor is being gay.

Hoppinggreen · 20/05/2015 13:26

Nor should they be but neither should NOT actively supporting campaigning over an issue.

MinimumPayment · 20/05/2015 13:29

How can the law of the land have decided that refusing to support a campaign for gay marriage is illegal, while gay marriage is in fact illegal in that country? Confused

FarelyKnuts · 20/05/2015 13:40

How is providing the service you advertise that you do ie: cakes with writing and cartoon characters on them, campaigning?
That's a bullshit argument. Providing the cake was not going to make them suddenly become campaigners for gay marriage.

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