New rape guidelines - what does it mean for your average perfectly decent man?

[FamilyAdventure]

I heard a report on R4 that made me worry for my DSs, currently young teens.

I have always taught them to respect women (everyone) and that sex is best with love. In fact when they were tiny and I taught them that no or stop is to be acted on immediately in play fights, it was with an eye to their relationships when they're older. Now, I absolutely don't believe they will become rapists and I'd like to think they'll only have sex in long-term loving relationships, but that might be an expectation too far...

The expert on the radio was saying that the onus will be on the man to prove he had consent, rather than the woman to prove she didn't, which sounds reasonable, but how is he supposed to do that? What checks does he need to do beforehand?

Also, doesn't it walk all over the premise of innocent until proven guilty if the defendant has to prove his innocence rather prosecution proving guilt?

I think the weakness has been noticed above. I can participate enthusiastically, today. But, tomorrow I might regret it and change my mind about my level of participation.

I just do not get this idea that women all over the place are just waiting for a man to penetrate them, just so that the next day they can go to the police and 'cry rape'. Sarah Vine wrote a horrible article in the DM basically saying that these days if a woman has sexual encounter she regrets she will go straight to the police and say it was rape. The comments were all in agreement.

If we think about the fact that sexual intercourse between men and women must take place literally millions of times in the UK every year, and yet the number of rapes reported is around 15,000. Add to that the statistic from the home office that around 3% of rape allegations are false - that's around 500 false allegations a year yes? 500 out of millions of sexual encounters? And that's just allegations, not convictions.

So where is this idea that thousands innocent men are going to be sent to prison? Seriously, I don't get it!

The reality is that if a man only ever has sex with a partner who is enthusiastic and obviously also enjoying themselves, then the chances of them being accused of rape is very, very very slim.

I am also astonished at the outrage there is at the very idea of making sure that your partner actually wants to have sex.

I still think there is this idea that women aren't really supposed to enjoy sex, that its for the pleasure of the men and women just 'let them do it'. Therefore, women don't need to seem like they are enjoying it, as long as they are not shouting 'no' or struggling, then consent is there.

I haven't read the whole thread, I've read most of it.

The issue of a woman having sex and then regretting it the next morning... I'm surprised at this argument recurring on here.

Have you ever had sex, regretted it in the morning, and reported it as rape? This must surely be a minority statistic.

Yes, it means a shift in attitudes, in culture. Yes, it means that men also need to accept that their actions, even when drunk, may have consequences.

Is that a bad thing? I would say not.

OP

unfortunately, not everyone on radio 4 is correct, particularly if an "instant response" is sought.

The commentator you heard was simply wrong. Sarah Vine has been a journalist for many years and she is also wrong.

Actually I heard that commentator on R4 and FamilyAdventure either misunderstood her or is misrepresenting her or didn't hear the whole thing.

The thing she said about the condom, was that in a situation where a man was insisting on sex which a woman didn't want and he wasn't going to stop and she realised this and asked him to use a condom in order to protect herself from pregnancy and/ or STD, in order to alleviate at least some of the damage being done to her, handing him the condom should not be seen as consent.

Which sounds perfectly reasonable like that, doesn't it?

Well yes, anon, it does actually

Who, honestly, who goes to the police the day after regrettable sex (which we've ALL had), and claims it was rape?

I have never heard of this happening. Many people wouldn't even admit same to their friends, let alone the old bill.

You know, the reason Clayton McDonald was acquitted of rape, while his partner in crime was famously convicted, was because the jury decided he believed he had consent. And this wasn't even the result of a woman 'regretting sex' and going to the police. She didn't even mention having sex when she went to the police about a missing handbag.

It's standard behaviour, JapaneseMargaret! Why wouldn't you put yourself through a police interview, the extreme stress of lying to the police, and potentially a court case, instead of just trying to forget about it and putting it down to experience? It must happen all the time

One night stands, yes probably best get it in writing or recorded on phone.

I know hundreds of examples of regrettable drunk sex not me, oh no but as none of them have been rape, nobody has ever claimed they were. The only women I know who have reported rape have been raped.

The idea that women will wake up full of regret and report a rape kind of implies that women are too stupid to understand what consent is, doesn't it? I have had drunk sex with people I might not have chosen to while sober but I can remember my decision making and I know I consented. I have been too drunk to consent and thankfully nobody has ever raped me when I have been in that state. But I would know the difference, because I know what consent is, and what it isn't.

Not to imply in that ^ that women who aren't sure about their experience are stupid, generally speaking those women know they didn't consent but also don't want to acknowledge they were raped. I struggle to believe that there are more than a vanishingly small number of women who genuinely consent to sex then genuinely feel they have been raped afterwards.

From what I could understand this is more about guidelines to the police when questioning a suspect and not an actual change to the innocent until proved guilty principle. Someone accused of rape who claims it was consensual still does not need to prove that consent, their word must be accepted unless it can be proved that it wasn't consensual.

"Someone accused of rape who claims it was consensual still does not need to prove that consent, their word must be accepted unless it can be proved that it wasn't consensual."

In the event that such a case gets to court, the jury would listen to testimony from the defendant and the complainant, along with any other evidence, and would judge if the defendant's guilt was proved beyond reasonable doubt.

This is not the same as having to accept the defendant's word.

Of course sorry I didn't really say what I meant correctly. I meant that it's not a case of the defendant must prove they got consent. The prosecutor has to prove that they didn't get consent beyond reasonable doubt.

Ok

This "regret sex" is being heavily touted. You only need to read the DM comments or some other sites to see that more and more people are buying into (or conveniently buying into) this. Many people just want to think this, spread this as the reason women report rape.

I just don't understand it. I never had that many casual sex encounters. A few drunken ones that probably weren't the best idea - I always assumed like me - most women and girls just chalked it up to experience and hopefully made better decisions in future. Not go running, flapping our hands and bringing down the might of the law, family and community on our slutty heads as that obviously is the easier road to to take.

You assumed it, because its true.

It's far easier to believe that women regret sex, flap about it, and contact the law, than it is to believe that men coerce women into sex they do not want.

The vast majority of women who have been coerced into sex they do not want, don't report it. Let alone, women who simply regret consensual sex.

Reporting consensual, regrettable sex as rape is just a thing that doesn't happen.
I'm not saying it has never happened, because most things have happened at one point or another. But it doesn't happen.

Men just have to shift their mindset a bit from "She didn't say no" to "She said yes".

Men just have to shift their mindset from "she's crying rape" to "she was raped".

We don't hear about "crying burglary" or "crying assault" or "crying fraud".

The very idea that women regularly pretend they were raped just to get at men and that men need legal protection from this awful danger is an insult to women.

Not to mention a vicious lie that pretends that rape is not something regularly perpetrated by men because they think they can get away with it.

A report was released this week that said that approximately 1/3 of male students would have sex with a non-consenting woman if they thought they could get away with it.

I don't know why you are so complacent that your sons aren't among this very high number of potential rapists.

Of course, when asked if they would rape a woman, many of the same men said no (although an alarming number said yes).

Because the truth about these guidelines, and the reason so many men (and their mommies) are furious about them, is that lots of rapes have been happening under cover of "she didn't say no".

And the men who enjoy these kinds of rapes don't want to stop being able to do them.

And yes, a lot of teenage sex involves this kind of rape. So you need to teach your sons more than "no means no".

And this "I worry for my boys" line really enrages me. If we spent half the time teaching our boys how not to be rapists as we spent teaching our girls how not to be raped, the world would be a much better place.

I know. There is a far bigger chance that "your boys" will grow up and rape than that they will be falsely accused.

Most of the "false accusations" people worry about are really true accusations that couldn't be proven.

It reads to me as "I'm worried that when the rapists I've been raising do what they are entitled to do, some silly bitch will complain and make life difficult for them."

^^ Yes, this.

Because this concern that you have, that the women they're having otherwise consensual sex with, and going to change their minds the next morning, and run and flap to the police?

It's just not going to happen. Because it doesn't happen.

"I'm really worried for my boys that if they do a rape they might actually suffer some consequences."

That's what this is really all about.

I disagree with that last post, BF. If you took a straw poll about the percentage of false rape allegations, I'm sure public perception is way higher than it is.