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Elsewhere in the Middle East

229 replies

LouiseBrooks · 06/08/2014 22:17

I defy anyone to watch this Iraqi MP without weeping.

OP posts:
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claig · 22/08/2014 12:28

Channel 4 actually interviewed a Syrian government official the other day. Amazing. There was the usual Jon Snow shouting show, but Syrian government officials never usually get any airtime as opposed to the assorted crew of Jihadi sympathisers and all the rest who get interviewed so often.

Now if the BBC actually start interviewing Syrian government officials rather than the assorted cast of Jihadis, then it may be that policy really is going to change.

Only a few days ago, the BBC carried an interview with a Jihadi that got some criticism.

"So why did the BBC give airtime to this Islamic State fanatic? Corporation accused of playing into terrorists' hands after carrying interview on Newsnight"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2731343/So-did-BBC-airtime-Islamic-State-fanatic-Corporation-accused-playing-terrorists-hands-carrying-interview-Newsnight.html

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KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 12:44

Asked whether Qatar, Turkey or Saudi Arabia – another alleged source of funding – were “fully on board”, Harf responded: ”Well, look, we’re talking to them every day about what more we can all do. We know there’s more that needs to be done. We know this is a long-term fight, and we know it’s a tough one. So we’re having those conversations.”
anyone know what these countries do in such times? are they providing aid and assistance to Yadis and christians and refugees. Are they all talking about their own air strikes? They are extremely rich countries are they not? does saudi give generous aid and so on? do they have an army>

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claig · 22/08/2014 12:49

Very good questions, KnittedJimmyChoos.

Do they care about what Isis is doing or have some of them been secretly supporting them, and why have the West not done more to stop Isis funding and why have the West not had those conversations before?

"We know there’s more that needs to be done. We know this is a long-term fight, and we know it’s a tough one. So we’re having those conversations.” "

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IPityThePontipines · 22/08/2014 22:47

One year on since 1700 people were gassed to death in Ghouta by the Assad regime and Claig's happy because Syrian government officials are being interviewed on TV.

What utter nonsense.

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LouiseBrooks · 22/08/2014 23:39

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28870611

But despite Assad doing this, he is considered preferable to ISIS.

OP posts:
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claig · 23/08/2014 00:05

"The Collapsing Syria-Sarin Case

August 20, 2014


From the Archive: At the first anniversary of the Sarin gas attack outside Damascus on Aug. 21, there is a concerted effort to reestablish the original conventional wisdom, blaming the Syrian government for the hundreds of deaths. The goal seems to be to bury the alternative narrative that later emerged, as Robert Parry wrote last April.

By Robert Parry April 7, 2014

One shouldn’t be surprised, I guess, that some wannabe-journalist bloggers are auditioning before possible mainstream employers by attacking investigative journalist Seymour M. Hersh for writing a groundbreaking article implicating Syrian jihadist rebels and Turkish intelligence in the lethal use of Sarin on Aug. 21 outside Damascus."

consortiumnews.com/2014/08/20/the-collapsing-syria-sarin-case-2/


"New exposé by Seymour Hersh: Turkey staged gas attack to provoke US war on Syria

By Patrick Martin
7 April 2014

In a lengthy article published Sunday by the London Review of Books, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh reports that the sarin gas attack on a Damascus suburb on August 21, 2013 was actually carried out by Syrian “rebel” forces acting at the behest of Turkey, for the purpose of providing a pretext for a US attack on Syria."

www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/07/syri-a07.html


"According to Hersh, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency issued a highly classified five-page "talking points" briefing on June 19th which stated the Syrian rebel group al-Nusra maintained a sarin production cell. According to the DIA, it was, quote, "the most advanced sarin plot since al-Qaida’s pre-9/11 effort." The DIA document went on to state, quote, "Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria." A month before the DIA briefing was written, more than ten members of al-Nusra were arrested in southern Turkey with what local police told the press were two kilograms of sarin."

www.democracynow.org/2014/4/7/sy_hersh_reveals_potential_turkish_role

"In an interview with BBC News, Ukip leader Nigel Farage said it was "more than likely" that it was Syrian rebels, not pro-Assad forces, responsible for chemical attacks in the country."

www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-02/farage-syria-rebels-more-than-likely-to-blame-for-gas-attacks/


"A member of the United Nations commission of inquiry announced on a Swiss-Italian television show that they believe the Syrian rebels have used chemical weapons on Assad's troops. "Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated," said Carla Del Ponte, a member of the commission. "This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities."

www.thewire.com/global/2013/05/un-sources-say-rebel-forces-not-assad-used-sarin-gas/64897/

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claig · 23/08/2014 00:11

'But despite Assad doing this, he is considered preferable to ISIS.'

"The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is “ beyond anything that we’ve seen ” and poses a greater terrorism threat than Al Qaeda, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said Thursday."

www.politico.com/story/2014/08/chuck-hagel-isil-defense-james-foley-110241.html

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claig · 23/08/2014 00:18

Isis is stuffed full of Al Qaeda types and there are volunteers from this country who have joned them. The BBC quite often interviews some of these Jihadis and rarely speaks to Syrian government officials.

"So why did the BBC give airtime to this Islamic State fanatic? Corporation accused of playing into terrorists' hands after carrying interview on Newsnight"

//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2731343/So-did-BBC-airtime-Islamic-State-fanatic-Corporation-accused-playing-terrorists-hands-carrying-interview-Newsnight.html

Assad and Syria do not threaten us or our way of life, but these returning Jihadis and the butchers of Isis are a threat to us.

"David Cameron: Isil poses a direct and deadly threat to Britain

The poisonous extremism on the march in Iraq and Syria affects us all - and we have no choice but to rise to the challenge, says the Prime Minister "

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11038121/David-Cameron-Isil-poses-a-direct-and-deadly-threat-to-Britain.html

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claig · 23/08/2014 00:34

Even Malcolm Rifkind who was in favour of bombing Syria one year ago has said we should work with Assad to eliminate the threat of Isis.

"Exactly a year ago, the British government wanted to launch military action against Syria in a bid to oust President Bashar al-Assad in response to atrocities he committed against his own people.

Now, one of those who led the rejected demands for action, former foreign secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind, has urged the UK and US to work with Assad to "eliminate" Isis (known as Islamic State).

His call has been echoed by former Army chief Lord Richard Dannatt, who also said Prime Minister David Cameron should not rule out any military action against the militants, and came as the US appeared to be planning to extend air strikes against IS into Syria.

Foreign secretary Phillip Hammond has ruled out such co-operation as being neither "practical, sensible or helpful", but with the US talking openly about striking into Syria, the pressure will mount for some sort of common front with Assad against Isis."

www.ibtimes.co.uk/year-after-call-bomb-bashar-al-assad-will-david-cameron-now-join-him-against-isis-1462249

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IPityThePontipines · 23/08/2014 02:12

No, Seymour Hersh has been debunked here:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/22/allegation-false-turkey-chemical-attack-syria

Whoever you try to cite, claig, the facts are plain:

The Syrian regime has slaughtered many, many more men, women and children in Syria then any other group.

Your cheerleading for them cannot deny that fact.

The initial protests were peaceful, the regime starting killing the protesters anyway.

The regime you so slaveringly defend is one, that even before the uprising, had the world's youngest prisoner of conscience - try and see if you can Google who that is.

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claig · 23/08/2014 07:17

I don't cheerlead for anyone. I know that peaceful protestors were killed initially. However, I don't think that a 3 year war with a destroyed and ruined country, 190,000 dead and millions displaced should have happened because of that.

I think the West should not have taken sides and should not have armed and trained rebels and that our allies should not have spent billions trying to overthrow Assad in a proxy war where mercenaries, Jihadis and terrorists from all over the world were used to try and defeat the Syrian army, and where barbaric mercenaries butchered Syrians by beheading them, crucifying them etc. I think we should end all funding for the rebels and all funding to Isis should end and that we should negotiate a peace deal with Assad where he remains in power. Even Tony Blair has belatedly come to realise that

"The war in Syria is an “unmitigated disaster” and the best way forward may be an interim peace deal that allows Bashar al-Assad to stay in power for a short period, former U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair said.

“Two years ago, I said we had to intervene and take tougher measures otherwise Syria would disintegrate and we’d be left with increasingly tough options,” Blair said in an interview with Bloomberg TV in London today. “Right now, all the options are ugly and difficult in Syria but the best option is the one that allows us to evolve with some kind of peaceful transition to a new constitution.”

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-23/blair-says-syria-peace-progress-may-mean-assad-staying-in-power.html

I, like many other people in this counry am sick of seeing the cast and troupe of UK Jihadi sympathisers, and "filmmakers" who are among the Jihadis in Syria, being interviewed and given airtime on our BBC and Channel 4, while they hardly ever interview a single person from Assad's regime which is fighting the whole band of funded terrorists, Jihadis, mercenaries and volunteers of Al Nusra, Isis, Al Qaeda, the Islamic Front and all the rest of them. One wonders whether the whole cast of interviewed Jihadis shown on our TV is intended to give Muslims a bad name. All we seem to hear from some voices is Muslims chided for not doing enough to condemn the Jihadis, and as soon as they condemn the Jihadis, another one of the cast of Jihadis pops up and is given airtime on our media.

I was unaware of the report you linked to which "debunks" what Seymour Hersh said. I have spent about 15 minutes googling to look into it. There are lots of articles supporting the debunking argument of Eliot Higgins, a blogger known as Brown Moses, but there is also discussion that supports Seymour Hersh.

So, who are Seymour Hersh and Eliot Higgins?

I think we have nearly all heard of the eminent American journalist, Seymour Hersh, and hardly any of us have heard of the UK blogger Eliot Higgins.

"Seymour Myron "Sy" Hersh (born April 8, 1937) is an American investigative journalist and author based in Washington, D.C. He is a regular contributor to The New Yorker magazine on military and security matters. He has also won two National Magazine Awards and is a five-time Polk winner and recipient of the 2004 George Orwell Award.[5]

He first gained worldwide recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai Massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting. His 2004 reports on the US military's mistreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison gained much attention."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh

For Eliot Higgins, who is the blogger Brown Moses, we have:

"How Brown Moses exposed Syrian arms trafficking from his front room"

"Leicester-based blogger's monitoring of weapons used in conflict has been taken up by media and human rights groups"

www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/21/frontroom-blogger-analyses-weapons-syria-frontline

"Eliot Higgins has no need for a flak jacket, nor does he carry himself with the bravado of a war reporter. As an unemployed finance and admin worker his expertise lies in compiling spreadsheets, not dodging bullets. He has never been near a war zone. But all that hasn't stopped him from breaking some of the most important stories on the Syrian conflict in the last year.

His work on analysing Syrian weapons, which began as a hobby, is now frequently cited by human rights groups and has led to questions in parliament."

...

"And he's done it all, largely unpaid, from a laptop more than 3,000 miles away from Damascus, in his front room in a Leicester suburb."

...


"Higgins, 34, has no training in weapons, human rights research or journalism – he dropped out of a media studies course at university. But his work is being taken up by everyone from Amnesty International to the New York Times."

He is amused to be referred to as a weapons expert. "Journalists assume I've worked in the arms trade," he says, "But before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons that the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo."

...

Higgins goes through about 450 YouTube channels from Syria every evening. The list includes uploaded footage from activists, rebel brigades and Islamist groups, as well as from Assad supporters and state TV footage. "If EastEnders isn't on I get straight on the laptop. On a good night when nothing much has been posted, it will take me an hour and a half, but I've been looking more closely recently."


Whereas award winning journalist, Seymour Hersh, breaks stories partially based on information that he receives from top-level contacts in the American establishment, based on his reputation and contacts built up over a lifetime of journalism in the United States, Eliot Higgins blogs from his front room in Leicester based largely on meticulously analysing about 450 Youtube uploaded videos per night.

Fans of Eliot's approach to journalism call this "open source video evidence", and this is claimed to be a new type of journalism that old guards like prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh have not kept up to date with. I'm not a journalist, but has anyone asked the question whether any of these 450 Youtube videos per night are fake or whether the rockets they show may possibly come from warzones in Iraq, Libya, Chechnya or Timbuktoo rather than Syria? Seymour Hersh doesn't need to scrutinise 450 Youtube videos per night because he has contacts at the highest level of US society who tell him things which he then tries to corroborate.

I tend to believe that Seymour Hersh has a better handle on what goes on than a UK blogger in a front room in Leicester who uses Youtube for information. but lots of people prefer Eliot's work.

Here is an old school journalist, the acclaimed Robert Fisk of the Independent. He's probably not the best "open source" Youtube video analyst on the planet, but he is a fine journalist nonetheless.

"In a country – indeed a world – where propaganda is more influential than truth, discovering the origin of the chemicals that suffocated so many Syrians a month ago is an investigation fraught with journalistic perils. Reporters sending dispatches from rebel-held parts of Syria are accused by the Assad regime of consorting with terrorists. Journalists reporting from the government side of Syria's front lines are regularly accused of mouthing the regime's propaganda. And even if the Assad regime was not responsible for the 21 August attacks, its forces have committed war crimes aplenty over the past two years. Torture, massacre, the bombardment of civilian targets have long been proved.

Nevertheless, it also has to be said that grave doubts are being expressed by the UN and other international organisations in Damascus that the sarin gas missiles were fired by Assad's army. While these international employees cannot be identified, some of them were in Damascus on 21 August and asked a series of questions to which no one has yet supplied an answer. Why, for example, would Syria wait until the UN inspectors were ensconced in Damascus on 18 August before using sarin gas little more than two days later – and only four miles from the hotel in which the UN had just checked in? Having thus presented the UN with evidence of the use of sarin – which the inspectors quickly acquired at the scene – the Assad regime, if guilty, would surely have realised that a military attack would be staged by Western nations.

As it is, Syria is now due to lose its entire strategic long-term chemical defences against a nuclear-armed Israel – because, if Western leaders are to be believed, it wanted to fire just seven missiles almost a half century old at a rebel suburb in which only 300 of the 1,400 victims (if the rebels themselves are to be believed) were fighters. As one Western NGO put it yesterday: "if Assad really wanted to use sarin gas, why for God's sake, did he wait for two years and then when the UN was actually on the ground to investigate?"

The Russians, of course, have made similar denials of Assad's responsibility for sarin attacks before. When at least 26 Syrians died of sarin poisoning in Khan al-Assal on 19 March – one of the reasons why the UN inspectors were dispatched to Syria last month – Moscow again accused the rebels of responsibility. The Russians later presented the UN with a 100-page report containing its "evidence". Like Putin's evidence about the 21 August attacks, however, it has not been revealed.

A witness who was with Syrian troops of the army's 4th Division on 21 August – a former Special Forces officer considered a reliable source – said he saw no evidence of gas shells being fired, even though he was in one of the suburbs, Moadamiya, which was a target for sarin. He does recall the soldiers expressing concern when they saw the first YouTube images of suffocating civilians – not out of sympathy, but because they feared they would have to fight amid clouds of poison.

"It would perhaps be going beyond conspiracy theories to say the government was not involved," one Syrian journalist said last week, "but we are sure the rebels have got sarin. They would need foreigners to teach them how to fire it. Or is there a 'third force' which we don't know about? If the West needed an excuse to attack Syria, they got it right on time, in the right place, and in front of the UN inspectors."

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/gas-missiles-were-not-sold-to-syria-8831792.html

At the end of the day, none of us knows what happened, but we have to decide which journalist is the better, more reliable sources - the award winning lifelong journalist with contacts at the highest levels or the blogger with a trained eye for a Youtube video.

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IPityThePontipines · 23/08/2014 09:24

Your rants about Jihadi's again ignores the simple point:

Assad has done most of the killing.

He has killed civilians in vast, vast numbers.

Why should he stay in power? He has butchered his people.

He drops barrel bombs on schools, has vast detention centres where people are starved and tortured to death, yet you think he's a man of peace?!

He is the most barbaric.of them all.

You are conflating all the Syrian rebels to suit your own purposes. The West did not fund ISIS, most members of ISIS aren't even Syrian.

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claig · 23/08/2014 10:18

'Why should he stay in power?'

Because as Tony Blair now realises that the billions spent by some of our allies who have tried to topple him for over 3 years has been a failure. He is still there. How many more lives have to be lost, how many more people have to live in misery in refugee camps, how many more weapons need to be given to the rebels and how many more of those weapons will fall into the hands of the Jihadi butchers who have grown in power during this 3 year war which has been funded in order to try and topple Assad and which Blair himself says is an "unmitigated disaster"?

How many more failed state Libyas and Iraqs must be created in order to weaken Muslim countries to grab oil and resources under the pretext of getting rid of dictators?

Bring it to an end, talk to Assad, make a deal, rebuild the country that has been destroyed and destroy Isis at the same time.

The rebels have been supplied, funded, trained and supplied with weapons for 3 years. Assad id fightng a war of survival against many foreign mercenaries as well as local Syrian rebels backed by Western allies. It is a nasty civil war, just like the nasty civil war in Eastern Ukraine is terrible, and civilians are the ones that suffer.

'The West did not fund ISIS'

The West didn't, but many reports say that our allies did.


"America's Allies Are Funding ISIS

The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), now threatening Baghdad, was funded for years by wealthy donors in Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia, three U.S. allies that have dual agendas in the war on terror.

The extremist group that is threatening the existence of the Iraqi state was built and grown for years with the help of elite donors from American supposed allies in the Persian Gulf region. There, the threat of Iran, Assad, and the Sunni-Shiite sectarian war trumps the U.S. goal of stability and moderation in the region.

It’s an ironic twist, especially for donors in Kuwait (who, to be fair, back a wide variety of militias)."

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html


'most members of ISIS aren't even Syrian'

Of course they aren't. They are mercenaries and butchers and terrorists from all over the world and they have been funded by some rich backers because for 3 years the Syrian rebels have not been able to topple Assad.

Stop this misery and destruction, stop rich backers profiting from the misery of millions of people, stop funders who fund barbaric butchers who bury Yazidis alive. Stop the war.

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claig · 23/08/2014 10:27

'the threat of Iran, Assad, and the Sunni-Shiite sectarian war trumps the U.S. goal of stability and moderation in the region.'

//www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html

That is what the war on Syria is really all about and millions of Syrians suffer just as the poor Iraqi people have suffered and are still suffering as the most barbaric Isis gang of butchers has grown in power, and the Libyan people have suffered, as their countries were destroyed.

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claig · 23/08/2014 10:35

Blair has changed his tune on Syria and not before time.

Malcolm Rifkind, whom the BBC often interviewed as the failed push for a strike on Syria was ramped up by the media, and who said we must bomb Syria, has now said we should talk to Assad and eliminate Isis.

Let's do it. Let's save lives and let's eliminate the terrorist butchers who threaten he entire region and our societies too.

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IPityThePontipines · 23/08/2014 11:41

The war of survival Assad is fighting is for his own survival - he has trashed the Syrian state with massive aerial bombardment, he has pounded Aleppo and Homes into the ground along with many other areas.

You have no answer to his mass murder of Syrian civilians, just endless whataboutery.

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claig · 23/08/2014 11:46

Why has he done that? Is he a psychopath?

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claig · 23/08/2014 12:21

Patrick Coburn article in the Independent

"West poised to join forces with Assad in face of Islamic State"

"The US has already covertly assisted the Assad government by passing on intelligence about the exact location of jihadi leaders through the BND, the German intelligence service, a source has told The Independent. This may explain why Syrian aircraft and artillery have been able on occasion to target accurately rebel commanders and headquarters."

...

"on Thursday when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Washington, General Martin Dempsey, said: “Can they [Isis] be defeated without addressing that part of the organisation that resides in Syria? The answer is no.”

...

Chas Freeman, the former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia , told The Independent that General Dempsey was pointing out that Isis straddles the Iraq-Syrian border and there should be a consistent policy towards it on both sides of the divide.

General Dempsey “did not spell out the implications of that but, to me, they point in the direction of calling it off with Assad . It might also imply the sharing of intelligence with the opponents of Isis, even those from whom we ourselves are estranged. Odder things have happened in the Middle East.”

Mr Freeman, who is retired, added he had no knowledge about whether intelligence-sharing with President Assad’s government was being considered.

...

Determined to get rid of President Assad, the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has kept Turkey’s 550-mile border with Syria open, giving the jihadists, including Isis, a safe haven over the last three years. The Turks are now saying Isis is no longer welcome, but Ankara has not moved seriously to close the border by deploying troops in large numbers.

A complete volte face by the US, Britain and their allies in their relations with the Assad government is unlikely because it would mean admitting that past support for the Sunni rebellion had contributed to the growth of the caliphate.

Mr Freeman says that he doubted that the liberal interventionists and neoconservatives who had pursued regime change in Syria were capable of reversing course. To do so would require them to admit that they bore considerable responsibility for legitimising pointless violence that has resulted in the deaths of 190,000 Syrians

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/west-poised-to-join-forces-with-assad-in-face-of-islamic-state-9686666.html


Hundreds of thousands dead on the altar of regime change and the Shia weakened and Syria destroyed.

What next? Weakening the Sunnis?


"West poised to join forces with Assad in face of Islamic State"

"Odder things have happened in the Middle East"

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claig · 23/08/2014 12:33

Remember how Saddam, our ally at the time, was backed and armed and trained in the 8 year war against Iran to weaken Shia Iran.

"Iraq invaded Iran on 22 September 1980, triggering a bitter eight-year war which destabilised the region and devastated both countries.

...

"The economic and political fallout was immense. At least half a million people died, and upper estimates stretch to 1.5 million.

Neither side had achieved its war aims. Khomeini had not overthrown Saddam. Saddam had not overthrown Khomeini or forced him to re-draw the border in Iraq's favour."

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4260420.stm

Years later Saddam was no longer our ally and Saddam was toppled and years later the Sunnis in Iraq were weakened and the Shia became the dominant political force.

Now the Sunni Isis has appeared and the Shia are being weakened in Syria and Iraq and there has been a 3 year attempt to do regime change on Shia Assad in Syria. That has failed and now Patrick Coburn tells us about Shia Assad

"West poised to join forces with Assad in face of Islamic State"

"Odder things have happened in the Middle East"

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claig · 23/08/2014 12:57

'The Iran-Iraq war left a painful legacy. Few modern conflicts have been so long, so bloody and so futile .'

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4260420.stm

Encouraged to clash and the conflict was futile

Thenwe have Syrian regime change. Rebels enouraged to clash and afer 3 years, 190,000 dead, Syria destroyed and millions displaced, the clash was futile

The Pope knows it, but the rich funders don't listen to him.

"Pope Francis has urged the leaders of the G20 countries to abandon the “ futile pursuit” of a military solution in Syria, as the Vatican laid out its case for a negotiated settlement guaranteeing the rights of all minorities, including Christians.

In a letter sent to Russian president Vladimir Putin, the host of today’s G-20 gathering in St Petersburg, Francis described his sadness that “one-sided interests” had prevailed in Syria, preventing a diplomatic solution to the conflict and allowing the continued “senseless massacre” of innocent people.

“To the leaders present, to each and every one, I make a heartfelt appeal for them to help find ways to overcome the conflicting positions and to lay aside the futile pursuit of a military solution,” Francis wrote as the meeting got under way."

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/abandon-futile-military-solution-for-syria-pope-tells-g20-leaders-as-vatican-urges-dialogue-8800415.html

Talk to Assad, make a deal, bring peace, stop the war.

But as the Pope also said, let''s all stop Isis militarily so that they cannot spread misery and barbarity across the region and expel Yazidi, behead Sunnis and Shia and expel Christian communities who have lived in Iraq for longer than we in Britain were ever Christians at all.

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Isitmebut · 23/08/2014 15:43

Claig ….. I’m sorry to say this, but your international political views seem as unjustified as your domestic one, as you appear to get a solid view, then make up the case around it with reams and reams of ‘noise’.

"Stop the war", which one?

Yes Syria has similarities with Sunni minority Iraq, in that Assad of Syria’s regime is an Alawite (offshoot of Shia) minority, ruling a majority of Sunni’s, which both explains why when Sunni Saddam of Iraq was overthrown, the new Shia regime under Al-Maliki held on to power like pooh to a blanket as Iraq burned under Sunni ISIS rather than unify Iraq – and why ISIS were so successful building up their powerbase in Syria.


But ‘talking’ to minority regime Assad for some short term understanding does NOT erase the past pain and atrocities the Syrian people (and elsewhere) have had to endure – and it will not bring back the dead, or those 9 million plus displaced – as Assad CAN NOT BE TRUSTED, by them, by the west, by anyone.


“Syrian civil war death toll rises to more than 191,300, according to UN”
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/syria-civil-war-death-toll-191300-un

”UN: 9 million Syrians now displaced as conflict ticks into fourth year”
america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/3/14/syriaa-s-forciblydisplacedtop9million.html

Re the “futile” civil war, to whom, you or those living in Syria whose opposition to Assad gave birth to ISIS?

Syria themselves are not new to invasion and screwing over the masses, in 1976 it sent it’s troops into the Lebanon and stayed their 29-years, then withdrew in 2005 but controls it via Assad’s Shia chuckle brothers, Hezbollah, Amal, and similar. In 2005 the unifying Lebanese P.M Rafik Hariri was murdered; guess who in Syria is in the U.N.’s frame and still being investigated and it ain’t ISIS??

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claig · 23/08/2014 16:37

'"Stop the war", which one?'

Does it matter? All of them!
The Syrian regime change one.

"Tony Blair calls for regime change in Iran and Syria as he blames Tehran for prolonging the conflict in Iraq after the 2003 invasion."

...

"He [Blair] does not suggest that Syria presents the same threat as Iran. But he says that Syria would be better off if President Bashar al-Assad, the president, stands down. Blair says: "He is not going to lead the programme of change in Syria now. He has shown he is not capable of reform. His position is untenable. There is no process of change that leaves him intact."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/sep/09/tony-blair-regime-change-iran-syria

It is obvious now. Assad was not a moderniser not a progressive, not a New Labour type

"He is not going to lead the programme of change

So it is regime change for him.


"those living in Syria whose opposition to Assad gave birth to ISIS?"

ISIS has nothing to do with those living in Syria. Isis was created by rich Saudi and Qatari backers to weaken the Shia across the region. The first step was Syria, then it will be Hezbollah and finally Iran.

Patrick Cockburn on how ISIS started

"The foster parents of Isis and the other Sunni jihadi movements in Iraq and Syria are Saudi Arabia, the Gulf monarchies and Turkey. This doesn’t mean the jihadis didn’t have strong indigenous roots, but their rise was crucially supported by outside Sunni powers. The Saudi and Qatari aid was primarily financial, usually through private donations, which Richard Dearlove, the former head of MI6, says were central to the Isis takeover of Sunni provinces in northern Iraq: ‘Such things do not happen spontaneously.’ In a speech in London in July, he said the Saudi policy towards jihadis has two contradictory motives: fear of jihadis operating within Saudi Arabia, and a desire to use them against Shia powers abroad. He said the Saudis are ‘deeply attracted towards any militancy which can effectively challenge Shiadom’. It’s unlikely the Sunni community as a whole in Iraq would have lined up behind Isis without the support Saudi Arabia gave directly or indirectly to many Sunni movements. The same is true of Syria, where Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the former Saudi ambassador to Washington and head of Saudi intelligence from 2012 to February 2014, was doing everything he could to back the jihadi opposition until his dismissal. Fearful of what they’ve helped create, the Saudis are now veering in the other direction, arresting jihadi volunteers rather than turning a blind eye as they go to Syria and Iraq, but it may be too late"

www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/12/isis-the-birth-of-a-terrifying-new-state/

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claig · 23/08/2014 16:52

I listened to BBC Any Question on Radio 4 today and all 4 panel members felt that we should talk with Assad, even though it is unpleasant.

But what was really interesting was the call-in afterwards where someone phoned in and said that the Sunnis are not all against Assad and that the head of the Syrian Army and the head of Syrian Intelligence are Sunnis. I don't know if that is true or not, but googling brings up an article that shows that it is more complicated than just being a Sunni/Shia clash.


"Sunnis fill rebel ranks, but also prop up Assad regime


Michael Pizzi and Nuha Shabaan, Special for USA TODAY 10:12 a.m. EDT August 1, 2013



Many Sunnis are backing the dictatorship to preserve their livelihoods, or believe the uprising is doomed or ruthless.



AMMAN, Jordan — One explanation of the Syrian civil war is that it is at its heart a conflict of the two strains of Islam that have warred for centuries: Sunni Muslims against the minority Shiite Muslim Alawites, the sect of dictator Bashar Assad.

But the reality is more complex and helps explain why more than two years into the fighting that has killed more than 100,000 people Syrian President Assad has defied predictions of his demise

Sunni Muslims make up 70% of Syria's 25 million people and it is they who fill the ranks of the rebellion against Assad's minority Alawite regime, considered apostates by Sunni clerics. Yet one reason why Assad remains in power despite being outnumbered by a rival sect is that many Sunnis are on his side, and their support is aiding his survival, say analysts and rebels.

"If Sunnis were united behind the rebels, trust me, Bashar would've fallen within days," says Abu Qays, an anti-regime Syrian activist in the eastern city of Deir e-Zor who uses a nickname for security reasons. "Do you think those who are committing (these) massacres are all Alawites?"

...


"Some Sunnis say they are repulsed by the anti-regime revolutionaries, some of whom are imported al-Qaeda terrorists. Others occupy privileged positions in Syrian society and do not want to abandon their livelihoods. Some believe the uprising is doomed to fail and do not wish to go down with it."

...

One is Rama Tarabishi, 26, a Sunni woman from Damascus

The rebel Free Syrian Army, specifically the aligned Jabhet Al Nusra fighters, are "nothing more than lunatics who kill everyone who disagrees with them," Tarabishi says, while noting that the Assad regime is a secular one that tolerates diversity.


"President Assad is surely better than the political vacuum, religious hegemony, brutal, sectarian domination which would occasion on his downfall," she says. "I believe anybody who took the time to monitor, absorb, and analyze the situation, especially given the recent deterioration on the ground, would logically stick to and support the government."

Tarabishi blames Western intervention for her nation's unraveling – a counterpoint to the rebels' claims that Iran, Russia and Lebanon's Hezbollah fighters are propping up the Syrian regime.

But she admits that United Nations-backed economic sanctions meant to spur dissent against Assad's regime, and the attacks of the Free Syrian Army, are taking their toll.

"Previously in Syria, even the poorest individual was able to survive," Tarabishi says. "However, now, 90% of the middle-class people find that hard."

www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/01/syria-sunnis-assad/2599927/

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Isitmebut · 23/08/2014 17:15

Claig …… yet another ‘blitz-ream’, usually on individual quotes of questionable sources e.g. Blair (lol), rather than make simple points and reference with links.

A simple question; we KNOW Assad is NOT a good egg yet whips up revolutionary omelettes home and away in neighbouring countries. We also know domestically that some may prosper but the majority of people want rid of him – so where is there room for the international community to tell THEM they are wrong, to stop fighting, and wait for Assad retaliation, as he is well known for?

Just a thought, you’re a U-kipper, Farage publicly admired Putin for his role supporting Assad, and told the EU they had blood on their hands for standing in the way of Putin’s early attempts of reforming the old Soviet Union by jackbooting into the Ukraine.

Tell me as UKIP got a new rich backer, or is your real name Claigosky???????

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claig · 23/08/2014 17:27

Bliar is an important international figure. He knows what goes on. That is why I quote what he says because his bosses tell him what goes on and what will come.

'so where is there room for the international community to tell THEM they are wrong, to stop fighting'

The rich backers have funded them, have armed them, have trained them in order to try and topple Assad and carry out regime change.

Blair again speaking in the management speak that his bosses address him with

"His [Assad's] position is untenable. There is no process of change that leaves him intact."

You are caricaturing Farage and his position, just as you did when you compared him to a vacuum cleaner. Farage will be proved right in the long run. UKIP has no rich backers, it is the party of the people, you should know that by now.

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