Assisted dying - so angry

[specialsubject]

No-one is saying it will be compulsory. But it looks like it is going nowhere. And this kind of comment is why:

Archbishop of York says: "Dying well is a positive achievement of a task which belongs to our humanity"

tell that to Tony Nicklinson's family, and many others.

I am no more terminally ill than any other healthy person. But if I become so, I would like the choice. I have seen the suffering of someone who didn't have it.

It was ok for George V. It is ok for suffering animals. Why isn't it ok for terminally ill humans who want to make that choice? Why is this choice not allowed?

[ICanHearYou]

I agree larry and it stands to reason that if we are focussing palliative care on less people because we allow those who CHOOSE to die, then there is going to be far more funding/options and space to improve things.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

We need better safeguards of what we already have - I had a family member this year who went into hospital with pneumonia and quickly was on the edge of death, but it turned out that someone had read cancer on his sheet and had been giving him unneeded morphine for weeks as well as called the family to say their goodbyes. Once corrected, he was able to heal and has since resumed cancer treatments and gotten married, but the person who did it almost killed him, almost cost them the benefits they need to survive (because he was in hospital so long), almost cost his partner her job, and brought great distress for him and the family all because they had written him off because of a different condition to what he went into hospital with. We need to discuss why society still writes people off without their input.

Personally, I'm finding how many able people are using disabled and chronically ill people as a reason why this is so needed really offensive and I don't think people realize that one of the most disempowering things is having other people tell me what my life is like. I am disabled and chronically ill. My partner is disabled as are most of my friends. Even as a disabled person myself, I wouldn't dare try to tell people how my partner or my friends views their chronic pain and he wouldn't try to tell people how I view the fact that my intermittent paralysis will become permanent. Telling me my life is pain, suffering, and disempowerment because their is no treatment shows how stuck some people are in the medical model and don't realize that many 'suffer' more because of other people and how society is maintained.

I have had people planning how I should die for as long as I can remember. I've had people telling me I should die for as long as I can remember. I will forever have to live with my family members, people meant to care for me, discussing and telling me that if I love them, if I reeeally loved them, I would kill myself. Having people discuss how they would be physically and mentally and financially better off if you'd just die really takes it's toll. And living in a society where this is not only acceptable but encouraged even more of one. I didn't think I would make it to adulthood because I honestly thought my parents would kill me, not my disabilities - my parents, and I thought that happened to most disabled people because of how few I was allowed to see. And it does happen to many young people with disabilities and their murderers more often than not are sympathized with rather than punished. We are a society that hides and despises the vulnerable and the weak and think that this has no effect on how we view ourselves or how others treat us.

I'm on the fence about assisted suicide, I don't think we as a society are in a place yet to use it properly or at least to use it without damaging other people who wish to live with dignity rather then die. I have body autonomy one hand and seeing how many disabled people are murdered without justice and commit suicide not from want of death but from fear of others and lack of resources to live on the other. I have self determination on one hand and a society that is determined to make us as isolated and guilty for living on the other. The yammer than this won't affect disabled people, that this won't have an impact on how chronically ill people are seen and treated shows that many people haven't the foggiest how much this rhetoric is already in our lives. We have people choosing these methods because of loneliness, many people say would use it before 'becoming a burden', and those are seen as normal and right rather than indication that our treatment and view of those in need. People should get a free choice, but in a society that tells those on the bottom that the world would be better without us constantly, that we would be better off not to become of them, is that a free choice or society's? It's difficult to see it clearly when I am a person and surrounded by people who are so often used as lives people would want to die to get away from.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

*It's difficult to see it clearly when I am a person and surrounded by people who are so often used as lives people would want to die to get away from by people who have never lived our lives themselves.

[edamsavestheday]

I'm sorry your parents were so shit, Spork. However, while I hear what you say about prejudice and discrimination towards the sick and disabled, I don't think your horrific experience applies to everyone, or should trump the views of those who do support assisted dying like Stephen Hawking or Terry Pratchett.

The Falconer bill would apply to those who choose assisted dying, it would not impose any obligations on anyone else. Surely we can tackle prejudice and discrimination as well as enable those who wish to choose when to end their lives. It's not even about disability, it's about terminal illness.

[ICanHearYou]

TheSpork, that only really stands if we are suggesting 'forced' assisted dying which nobody is.

The likelihood is that similar to abortion, people wouldn't feel the need to bring it up as the 'best option' if it was an option available to everyone and that everyone knew everyone knew about!

I think people judge by their own standards and most people would rather die than live in chronic, debilitating pain and those with regressive diseases would rather know that at a certain point they could say 'no more' or put in place the means to say 'no more from this point'.

[thereturnofshoesy]

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy i cam on here to post, but after reading your very well put post can I just agree with you.

[larrygrylls]

TheSpork,

Sad though your story is, it is irrelevant to this thread. This thread is about offering assisted dying to the terminally ill, those with less than 6 months life expectancy.

[specialsubject]

no-one is using disability or chronic illness as a reason for getting rid of people. As repeatedly noted, it would only be available for those who wanted it for themselves, had a terminal diagnosis and could convince 2 doctors that they were capable of the decision.

I'm going to die at some point. If whatever kills me is going to do it slowly and painfully, I don't see why I have to go through that when a dog doesn't. But if someone else wants to hold on to every second of life regardless, let them. It's called choice, and currently it is denied.

[thereturnofshoesy]

larrygrylls
really you think you can decide who has a right to post??

your post about someones story of life with disability, shows why this must never happen

thanks

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

To say that legalising assisted dying would make no difference to people who are feeling under pressure to die seems to me ridiculous.

Introducing this law for people with a terminal diagnosis can only be the thin end of the wedge.

Spork, your story has really shocked me, I really hope you are now in a place where you feel safe and loved.

[DikTrom]

I think that Larry hits the nail on the head.

[bemybebe]

Right to die will turn pretty quickly into the obligation to die given the "right" family and community. Disabled are already labeled a burden by some, a recent article by a baroness (don't remember the name, sorry) springs into mind. The Dutch experience should be thoroughly studied, I would love to see some proper research on it, my personal experience with assisted dying there was rather upsetting and I don't want to see it here.

[DikTrom]

The facts are otherwise.

Never heard of disabled people in the Netherlands being pressurised to die ...

Maybe it is better to make these types of decisions based on facts rather than hysterics.

[bemybebe]

Not sure what facts are otherwise. My fil had no problem obtaining permission for dying in the NL. He also had a party for the family, I was not present I had to stay away. He was not in "insufferable pain" and was walking around. But this is anecdote as is your story.

[ICanHearYou]

Maybe it is better to make these types of decisions based on facts rather than hysterics.

That would be an awfully good start.

Unfortunately I think it would have to start with a complete overhaul of this ridiculous fear of 'death' that we seem to have and instead focus on balancing dying with the reality for many who will die over a long period of time in serious pain and understanding that when the end comes it will be seriously horrible.

As for not knowing how 'calm' an assisted death really is, even if its 20 minutes of pain before death, that is better than the many months or years some have to endure.

I think allowing people who are seriously ill and in pain to die when they choose (or have previously chosen) is the mark of a truly civilised society.

[juliascurr]

House of Lords packed for assisted dying. Independent Living fund abolition - not so much. If we get assisted suicide we will get nothing else.

[juliascurr]

Ican yes, it is similar to abortion - any single mother who gets social housing, free nursery, benefits to help her bring up a child on her own is regarded as a scummy scrounger. Far better to 'choose' to terminate.

(I'm totally pro-choice, but that 'choice' is weighted)

[ICanHearYou]

Your post is hypocritical, you are on one hand pointing out all the things that we, as a society do to help single mothers and on the other hand suggesting that the ability to terminate if that is your choice is 'weighted'

Doesn't make any sense I am afraid.

Choice is not a bad thing, people will cling on to life as much as they can if that is what they choose, regardless of what is available to take life away. Just as people will cling on to their babies regardless of the choice of abortion.

If we stop paying to keep people alive who simply don't want to be, there will be more money to support those who do want to be, nobody seems to be able to argue this basic point.

[larrygrylls]

'As for not knowing how 'calm' an assisted death really is, even if its 20 minutes of pain before death, that is better than the many months or years some have to endure.'

The best way of doing it (which they do in Belgium) is using an anaesthetic agent. It is no more stressful than being anaesthetised for an operation.

It really would be a good idea to look at the statistics of who is choosing assisted dying and when, rather than making out this is an anti disability measure. I will post some links later but, in the Netherlands, 78% have terminal cancer and the vast majority of the rest have degenerative neurological conditions.

[larrygrylls]

I think this a really important discussion and, while I respect the failings of society towards those with disabilities, this thread is about the current bill giving the right to an assisted death to those with terminal illnesses and less than 6 months life expectancy.

[TheHoneyBadger]

thespork haven't read the replies to your post but wanted to say thank you for your post. you've said some of what i'm trying to form in my mind clearly let alone try and say.

i agree totally that we as a society are not ready to use this well. that there are other things we must achieve first, there are conditions that need to be in place first and then we can talk about 'choice' and it mean just that rather than it requiring us to gloss over the actual realities and context that make that alleged choice very far from being a meaningful one.

i'm so sorry you've had to grow up with that fear. i'm guessing you've been brushed under the rug on here as a special circumstance or just been told ah we're talking about choice though not forcing people. maybe not. but i just wanted you to know i engaged with the complexity of what you were saying and really appreciated your sharing it as it's helped me put together some bits in my mind that have been concerning me. i too have mixed feelings and mostly because of that complexity and reality behind a word as clean sounding as 'choice'.

[Jux]

There is no doubt in my mind that there are some people who will not blanch at the idea of coercing a family member into agreeing to an assisted death. Not many, but there will be some unscrupulous people who will take advantage of this legislation.

I am torn, as I am also horrified that there are people who want to die for very very good reasons, in sound mind and all that, and I don't like the fact that we will end an animal's suffering but not a person's. My mother got as close as she could to it by having a DNR put on her file (she was a Catholic and wouldn't have gone further than that under any circs).

I think I agree with TheHoneyBadger that as a society we are not yet ready for this, but are we ever likely to be?

[settingsitting]

Can you imagine the jokes, meant or half meant, when a person becomes terminally ill?