My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

News

Britain NOT a “Christian county” – since when??

202 replies

Isitmebut · 22/04/2014 14:59

Generally speaking, when taking a snapshot of any country there are several nation traits most people just know about us that is made up of from a rich history and traditions, and Britain is no exception.

We have a monarchy, we speak English, our currency is the English Pound Sterling (lol), we still eat fish and chips out of a newspaper - and if you asked what our religion is, whether they knew about Henry VIII’s spat with the Pope or not, without the need to be specific they’d say we were ‘Christian’ – ask anyone.

Well not everyone, and certainly not the 55 ‘public figures’ that have accused Cameron for daring to point out the bleedin’ obvious, after nearly 1,000 years of international and domestic wars/conflicts, fought in the name of a ‘Christian’ religion – who accuse him of “mischaracterising” Britain, “fostering alienation” and argue that members of an elected government have no right to “actively prioritise” religion or any particular faith. Wh-at????
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10777270/David-Cameron-fuelling-sectarian-division-by-bringing-God-into-politics.html

They argued that, apart from a “narrow constitutional sense”, there is no evidence to justify describing Britain as Christian, mainly because the 2011 Census saw a dramatic fall in those tick boxing ‘Christian’, wh-at???

Forgetting God for a moment, after several years now most citizens still won’t acknowledge that we have a honking great budget deficit and national debt - and that there has been the greatest recession since the 1930’s, yet there is far more historical and current evidence out there that it all exists - so don’t use dumb statistics of a Census that included those ticking ‘Jedi’ as a religion, to diss 1,000 years of our history.

Now I have no cares for looking into (and then trying to label) their political motives, but it seems rather ‘Leftie’ to me – and far too similar to this little bit of ‘social engineering’, designed to QUOTE “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, by the last government.

“Labour wanted mass immigration to make UK more multicultural, says former adviser”

“Labour threw open Britain's borders to mass immigration to help socially engineer a "truly multicultural" country, a former Government adviser has revealed.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

So is this YET MORE ‘nose rubbing’ by Lefties into Righties in the name of ‘diversity’, as Cameron was not ‘doing down’ the other religions, who themselves would resist any notion that their OWN countries were secular, so rightly acknowledge that the UK is a ‘Christian’ country.

“David Cameron Christianity claim backed by religious groups”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

Religious groups have backed Prime Minister David Cameron's assertion Britain is "a Christian country".

Hindu Council UK said it was "very comfortable" with the description. The Muslim Council of Britain said the UK was a largely Christian country.

So based on our proud history as an ethnic religiously TOLERENT nation and the role that ‘The Protestant Work Ethic’ had on our prosperity, who is to TELL OUR GOVERNMENT that we are NOT a ‘Christian’ country, or indeed that Christianity still has a role in today’s society - to help solve some of the work ethic problems that have grown within our society, now all the money has gone?

“Niall Ferguson - Killer 'apps': the ideas that propelled the west to world domination (see list at bottom of this link)”
www.theguardian.com/books/2011/feb/20/niall-ferguson-interview-civilization

  1. Work ethic: As Max Weber noted a century ago, Protestantism was a form of Christianity that encouraged hard work (and just as importantly, Ferguson adds, reading and saving). It isn't a coincidence, he says, that the decline of religion in Europe has led to Europeans becoming the "idlers of the world" (while the more religious US has remained hard-working). Interestingly, Ferguson also argues that China's embrace of hard work is partly because of the spread there of Protestantism.


We had 13-years of ‘Lefties’ running our government, their Quangocracy, most of our media, our education system, the police etc etc etc.

So (from a lapsed CoE ‘weddings and funerals only’ citizen) god help us as a monarchy, an individual State with proud traditions/rights and our prosperity, when they get back in and finish off the destructive job to the British way of life they started in 1997, and left as a work in progress, in 2010.
OP posts:
Report
Isitmebut · 23/04/2014 01:53

Yes dear, 'night.

OP posts:
Report
fidelineish · 23/04/2014 01:54

Your reasoning is only equalled my your charm IsIt

Report
fidelineish · 23/04/2014 01:54

I'll amend that Corus; you definitely have a point Grin

Report
fidelineish · 23/04/2014 01:55

Help yourself to 'dimplify' BTW

Report
CorusKate · 23/04/2014 01:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CorusKate · 23/04/2014 01:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kickassangel · 23/04/2014 02:02

The US doesn't have an official state religion and last time I checked they still had autonomy and respect from other nations. They might not be universally liked, but they're not being stomped upon by all the other countries.

Other countries which don't have an official religion but still seem to be holding out OK would include China.

Hmm. Perhaps it is OK not to have an official state religion?

Also, I'm pretty sure that England (for want of a better definition) became Christian during the time of roman occupation somewhere around 200 AD. I could google it but I can't be arsed.

Report
Floisme · 23/04/2014 08:03

I was the one who raised the issue of bishops. You gave me a very flippant answer so I decided it wasn't worth discussing with you. However, as you're now saying you didn't understand my point, I'll try one more time:

We have (I believe) 26 C of E bishops sitting in the house of lords so yes, although you brushed off my contribution, I was actually agreeing with you that we are a Christian country. However I personally think it is wrong to have unelected clerics (of any faith) in government. I don't think it is democratic. Do you?

Report
Isitmebut · 23/04/2014 11:10

Floisme …… originally YOU stated that in YOUR opinion that having bishops in the House of Lords MAKES US a Christian country and then asked “Is that what you were trying to say, op?” – and it wasn’t, the bit about 1,000 of years of history covered that, even if apparently I was short 500-years – I didn’t know how many times or ways I had to say it.


Asking my opinion on unelected clerics in the Lords is different, so I’m happy to give you my view.


Although as mentioned earlier I fully agree with the FUNCTION of the House of Lords, the calibre of many of those within scrutinising important and often complex legislation is highly questionable, as often I.Q. is the last consideration when ‘elevating’ some apparatchik for services to the party, which could just be moving out of a safe parliamentary seat for someone a lot better.

Some get to the Lords for Cash to political party coffers and will have mixed abilities and agendas, but are also likely to be voting along partisan lines re the base ideology of the political party they felt so strongly about, they chose to fund them.

However in my opinion, while the Bishops will have political views, they are generally more intelligent, have less of an agenda and due to their ‘day job’ are unlikely to vote along ideological party lines, no matter how bad that legislation is, as clearly happens now e.g. not allowing the people a referendum on the EU.

As to whether ‘electing’ anyone into the Lords improves the quality of person in our upper chamber, I doubt it, and as far as bishops go, as far as I’m concerned if you’ve heard one, you’ve heard them all.

In conclusion; we could do a lot worse.




“Attorney General: Rise of fundamentalism is 'damaging' Christianity”

“The rise of religious fundamentalists with a 'deep intolerance' to other people's views has made Christians reluctant to express their beliefs, Dominic Grieve warns”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10781259/Attorney-General-Rise-of-fundamentalism-is-damaging-Christianity.html

“Christians are increasingly reluctant to express their religious views because they are being “turned off” by the “disturbing” and “very damaging” rise of religious fundamentalism, the Attorney General has said.”


“Dominic Grieve said that atheists who claim that Britain is no longer a Christian nation are “deluding themselves” and must accept that faith has shaped this country’s laws and ethics.”


“He said that 1,500 years of Christian values are “not going to disappear overnight” and said that many people remain believers even if they choose not to go to Church.”


Apparently the meek shall inherit the earth, as long as the non believers who use the media to shout loudest, allows it.

OP posts:
Report
Floisme · 23/04/2014 11:15

So to sum up, you agree it is undemocratic but you don't mind?

Report
Isitmebut · 23/04/2014 11:35

Floisme …. While I cannot argue that it is undemocratic, I would point out to you that there are FAR WORSE examples in the House of Commons that I feel having some integrity above in the Lords, makes me sleep a little easier whether the bishops are elected or not.

Tell me, democratically are YOU comfortable with a Labour Party that needs only 36% of the popular vote to get a working majority in parliament to again do what they want – so heavily supported and cash funded by the trade union movement, right up to Miliband and the majority of the shadow cabinet’s offices – whether they are attempting to exclude any other ‘interests’, for their own interests, in the Commons or not???
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/2045534-Labour-to-ban-external-working-MP-s

You see to me poster, THAT and not the bishops stinks to high heaven.

If YOU can justify that, I’ll see you over on that post/thread and we’ll debate it further.

OP posts:
Report
Floisme · 23/04/2014 11:43

Why are you asking me questions about the Labour party?

One more time, am I correct in concluding that a) you agree it is undemocratic to have unelected clerics in governemt but that b) you don't mind?

Report
Isitmebut · 23/04/2014 12:07

Floisme....the subject I started here is regarding whether we are a Christian country or not; YOU raised the subjects of the bishops and YOU raised the subject of whether unelected bishops are democratic and 'do I mind'.

So I widened the debate along YOUR democratic lines in Westminster to tell you what I really mind about, which it is far worse for the future economic and social direction of this country, than 20 odd bishops who as far as I'm concerned have not been radicalized and are tolerant to others faiths and won't use their 1000 odd year Christian position to 'put down others.

So in DIRECT answer to your post, on your subject, on what clearly worries you; NO I DON'T CARE.

OP posts:
Report
Floisme · 23/04/2014 12:16

You don't care. That wasn't so hard was it?
Thank you.

Report
AWombWithoutARoof · 23/04/2014 12:23

But are we really a Christian country? None of my friends have any faith, and I can't believe we are a rareity.

If people respond to the question "Are you a Christian?", they are likely to say yes if they have been baptised, or went to Sunday School as a child, or have parents that go/went to church etc.

If people respond to the questions "Do you believe in god?", "Do you pray?" "Do you attend church?" I'm certain that many more people would answer no.

Report
slug · 23/04/2014 12:41

Meh, most of the Christians round my way are only Christians for the school places. the vicar, however, is a nice bloke who knows only too well that many of his congregation stop attending the minute their school places are secure.

Report
JakeBullet · 23/04/2014 12:47

I would have less issue with DC's description of "a Christian country" if he and his ilk were acting remotely "Christian" (ie following the teachings of Jesus Christ).
As it is we have rising food bank use, the poorest in society being shafted right, left and centre and the disabled losing out due to benefit cuts. Add to that the refusal to look at WHY food bank use has increased and I see nothing "Christian" about this country at all.

What would Jesus do?

Not act like this bunch that's for sure.

Just saying.

Report
Thurlow · 23/04/2014 12:53

I'm really, really trying here to understand what the hell is going on...

But to try and answer the question (not that there was much of a question in the original post), imo Britain is historically a Christian country, and much of the organisation of the state reflects the fact that it is historically a Christian country, with bishops in parliament etc - but it isn't particularly a Christian country any more when Christianity is on the decline (see the 2011 census figures).

You're confusing the issue of immigration and the subsequent introduction into the UK population of individuals who practice other religions, and the simple fact that there is a significant increase in people who would now identify themselves as atheist or agnostic. Again, the 2011 figures show that there was an increase from 15% to 25% of the population who describe themselves on the census as having no religion.

Report
Threetimesfive · 23/04/2014 13:02

If people respond to the question "Are you a Christian?", they are likely to say yes if they have been baptised, or went to Sunday School as a child, or have parents that go/went to church etc. If people respond to the questions "Do you believe in god?", "Do you pray?" "Do you attend church?" I'm certain that many more people would answer no.

I'd say don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't think that many people are atheists, maybe agnostic. Why can't we be a Christian country that is tolerant? Frankly people who do not believe in anything spiritual/ god worry me a bit. If you strip down the Christian faith to its basic principles it's really quite a lovely and worthwhile religion promoting love and good ethical principles. Better than the sheer greedy materialism that a lot of people feel forced to be part of.

Report
Threetimesfive · 23/04/2014 13:06

Ah, I also think that diluting one's culture to the point of no identity is empty and potentially dangerous. I know what I'm talking about as I /my fa family come from a wide range of backgrounds. People seek a sense of belonging and identity. What would replace the Christian foundations of this country then?

Also is this a question between occident (us) and orient?

Report
Isitmebut · 23/04/2014 13:09

JakeBullet…..as others have said, you don’t need to go to church regularly to be Christian, many can just use it at a time of family crisis, who is to judge?

But as Prime Minister whether you’re a communist/atheist or not, in my opinion it is the responsibility of the position to ensure our faith is protected, especially if in not doing so it emboldens other more radicalized faiths to ‘try it on’.

Re Cameron and food banks, and shafting to poor, we did not have the Great Recession on his watch, Labour have said they’d cut more from welfare/benefits, so in the real world as come May 2015 people will have two options from which one will form the next administration; Labour or Conservatives, one broke the country again, the other one is trying to fix it again - and if anyone had some miracle where the use of a few loafs of bread and wine can feed those using food banks, they should have spoke up before now.

OP posts:
Report
JakeBullet · 23/04/2014 13:13

I would say the same about Labour.....and no I realise you don't HAVE to go to church etc. But to claim you are "a Christian country" while acting totally opposite to what this means says to me that they haven't a fucking clue about what they are saying. It's all a load of bollocks just being said for effect.....and I would say the same if it was Ed Milliband saying the same while acting so appallingly.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/04/2014 13:15

The country has a Christian look to it with old church buildings and such, but Christianity is only important to the few remaining Christians.

This was never an argument over whether it looked Christian. This was about "Do we still think Christians should have extra rights" and most of us don't think so. Our beloved leader was trying to trick some Christians into voting for him by pretending he thought they should.

Report
CorusKate · 23/04/2014 13:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/04/2014 13:17

it is the responsibility of the position to ensure our faith is protected

Just yours right? Cos yours is the one true faith.

and Grin at Communist/atheist.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.