Oscar Pistorius trial

[JillJ72]

Starting a new thread as as was pointed out on the other thread, it is not an appropriate place to "talk" and continue to "promote" a really poor excuse for a "joke".

Yesterday's post-mortem evidence was awful; if ever there's a way to get across just how unglamorous guns are, post-mortem evidence is a painfully honest way of doing so.

I listened to the trial live today. My main impression? That Darren Fresco consulted with legal experts to ensure his affidavit did not incriminate him, yet left room for questions that weren't explicitly answered. If he'd paid for that input from legal experts, they didn't sew it up nicely and tightly. I got the impression he was a bit of an unwilling witness really, and had problems remembering some things, yet was very insistent on others. Some good journo feeds on twitter that give different flavours and interpretations.

I'll be honest. I hope this was as OP said, an appalling mistake. But equally so many questions, the constant "whys". And so I am sitting on the fence, listening to argument and counter-argument, and waiting for the judge's final decision.

Never have been in a court of law before, are proceedings usually this long, slow, going round in circles, playing cat and mouse?

Armchair - i think the defence were showing that she didnt give an accurate statement. Trying to muddy the waters presumably.

Very, very sad. A journo on Twitter described hearing them being read out as excruciating, I would have to agree. Poor, poor Reeva.

As for how the defence will counter it, I doubt very much they will try to make Reeva look bad, because by making her look bad, it makes it look more likely that he might have felt negatively towards her and that's the opposite of what they want.

I think a lot will depend on what the messages leading up to Feb 13th are like. However, while they point to a motive, text messages in themselves aren't enough for the prosecution to prove murder beyond all reasonable doubt.

I read that they may be calling the door detective back as a prosecution witness.

Have they been able to unlock Oscar's phone to read the messages?

The last set of messages read out we're dated for just past midnight on the 10th of Feb if I remember correctly so only a few days before Reeva died.

The messages are very damming to the carictor of OP and paint a very troubling picture of their relationship.
They don't prove the States case though and the press have shaken portions of what where long whats app messages a little out of context. When Reeva said she was frightened of OP I didn't get the impression she was physically frightened of him as such given the words she used around that statement.
The messages between Reeva and OP on the day and night of the shooting would be unlikely to show anything of note I would imagine as they had chosen to spend the night together and where then in the home do no need for meassages, they would have just talked. What will be important to the case is if either Reeva or OP had any exchanges with others through that day and evening. It is possible that the state will be able to give a reason why they may have argued that night.
I think personally that it may be enough for the state to go with the idea that the problems from just a few days earlier had come up again and they argued about that.
The defence however could (and most likely will) argue that all couples have bumps in the road, especially as the relationship becomes more serious and the arguments in the text messages where simply this and by the time of Reeva's death they had sorted it out, after all, they will argue that Reeva had got OP a valentines gift and card, she was spending the night with him.
Both arguments have merit although in my opinion on this one the State have a stronger argument as the do fences argument takes no account at all for the effects of an abuse relationship has on the behaviour of couples. Also OP from the start has sworn that his and Reeva's relationship was happy and loving and there where no problems at all in the relationship. This is contrary to the evidence of the whats app messages.
So far the mobile phone specialist has been very together and expansive with his investigation. He has been clear about what his sims are, he has showmen that when things didn't seem right with the information given to him from the investigating officers (the issue with mobile numbers and it seems a missing phone) he has investigated properly rather then just accept what he was given and look no further as some have done. He was also quick to point out that there where hundreds of messages that showed a happy and loving relationship. He seems very balanced and I hope the rest if his evidence is presented the same way.

Sorry for the long one

the prosecution could argue though that Reeva getting OP a valentines gift could equally have been because she was in such a controlling relationship i.e. that she wouldn't dare not iyswim.

Wasn't OP's story that they were planning to go out, but decided to stay in? In light of these messages, it makes me wonder if rather than deciding to have a cosy night in, they had argued and the plans were cancelled, due to him throwing his toys out the pram. I wonder if there are more messages to come.

OP said they were in bed asleep at 10pm but his internet on his phone was used an hour before her death.....Its not looking good fo him.

Moot point, I think he said they went to bed and Reeva did yoga. I get the impression he fell asleep, then woke up to the balcony doors being open.

Well, that's how I read his affidavit....

Will catch up on twitter later.

So expert agreed this mornin that internet connection doesn't necessarily mean he was on the internet. Could have been open browsers, updates or anythying. Break now for the interpreter to appear. Maybe it will be Botha ?

Oh. Not Botha then. Wonder if he will be final prosecution witness.

I just meant that the whole 'atmosphere' of their evening may have changed, and be different from the quiet, yoga filled, nap filled night he tried to portray.

I don't imagine they'll call botha - he was dropped from the case and pretty much discretited himself entirely in the beginning.

I agree, botha would be torn apart by roux

Well I would imagine BarryRoux will be consulting with him now that he is able to do so.

been reading the transcript on sky news. The tech evidence guy being interviewed by Roux, out of 1700 messages most loving and affectionate, there were four of rowing.
That doesn't sound quite how it was being reported yesterday

I think the internet connection thing is a red herring, smartphones do automated things like updating emails, both OP and Reeva's phones show net use before and after her death, like someone said earlier, not necessary a persons using them.

Roux is also asking for a message not to be read out which the reporter suggests mentions her drug taking. Like he's shielding her?
Video shown of message she sent to him blowing kisses. must be hard for her mother to see :(

Doesn't matter if it's a small percentage, it's the type of rowing that tells you a lot about a person, and that angry jealous intensity is horrible.

Op said they went to bed at 10pm I don't think it's been said they went to sleep at this time, not that I've seen.

Reeva had last used her phone at around 9pm.

Op phone was used around midnight this was internet usage but the phone analyst guy said it didn't have to mean a human was actually using the phone to do this, it can come from emails being received, updates on the phone etc etc.

Does anyone know when op got up to go to the balcony to get the fan/fans were op and reeva awake before this? Did they speak? I'm a bit confused by what actually went on between 10pm and when the incident happened. All I have heard is they went to bed at 10pm, reeva was doing yoga at sometime in the bedroom.

Interesting day today, I really feel for June steenkamp sitting through this, it must be heart wrenching

I agree the percentage of nice emails/texts to horrible ones is completely irrelevant.

The cycle and pattern of abuse is depicted well by these emails - there isn't constant abuse ( in the early stages) but charm, love, kindness, devotion, jealousy, anger, fury, guilt, apology, love and so on - each stage of anise and anger getting worse every time.

look at the abuse is a abuser's choice section

Free - he said they went to bed at 10 and went to sleep. he got up to move the fans just before the shooting so round about 3. he has said recently that he spoke to her just before he got up. this wasn't in the bail app.

quick question about the door. why are the state sticking to their version that he was on stumps when he broke the door down.

I've found the presentation of the state case to be very odd. I was expecting more of a "This is what we think happened and here are the witnesses to prove each section of the timeline".

Apart from the Whatsapp messages (which ultimately can't be used to prove anything that occurred on that night, either for the defence or the prosecution), they haven't put forward anything else that points to a motive.

There will be issues over if Reeva could have screamed after the first shot. The state say possibly (but they haven't really laboured this point), defence will say not and we've yet to hear from the defence experts or their eyewitnesses.

Now, I am no legal expert, but my understanding is that it is the burden of the state to prove murder, so is their plan to attack the defence version of events, as in "OP's version cannot be true, therefore our version must be correct"?

Anne - I was thinking the same thing. The phone records corroborate his timeline. The Whatsapp messages just show hes a controlling nasty twat.
The defence haven't really delivered any real crushing blows. Only one witness heard arguing, but they also heard more gunshots than possible, so that casts some doubt there.

Also shows how much crap was in the media about this. No secret text messages from ex bf, he didn't call his manager first.

For me it feels like the prosecution isn't being damning in their determination to show a motive. It's like they have leads and ideas but they don't follow them through.

Does this mean they've felt obliged to put OP on trial for premeditated murder, expecting he'll get something lesser? Where is the fire in the fight?

Or do they feel they are doing enough to undermine OP the Paralympic star with a penchant for pretty girls, fast cars and deadly weapons?

Or will the real attack happen when the defence call their witnesses?

Or is this how court normally plays out?

I've found the presentation of the state case to be very odd. I was expecting more of a "This is what we think happened and here are the witnesses to prove each section of the timeline"

I suppose they do that in opening and closing speeches, but I imagine opening speeches are less specific in case the witnesses don't say what you expect them to say.

I agree that I don't think the prosecution has proved anything apart from OP could be a jealous, controlling twat at times. That doesn't mean he murdered anyone and indeed only reinforces the point that if he thought there was a burglar in the house, he would shoot first and ask questions later.