Working class children need to try to be more middle class to get on!

[rollonthesummer]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10671048/Working-class-children-must-learn-to-be-middle-class-to-get-on-in-life-government-advisor-says.html

It is hard to be taken seriously if people from different parts of the country cannot understand you. In the work place you want people to listen to your message rather than a really thick accent. Its not fair. Teaching children what standard English is essentially making them bilingual.

I met children who barely open their mouths when they talk. The result is an incomprehensible grunt. These children do not have speech and language problems, its just that they are talking like their parents.

Private schools really focuss on speaking and listening skills. Children learn how to speak clearly in their natural accent. This gives them a level of confidence in group situations.

Why would you find it hard to take someone who spoke with a different accent to your own seriously? I have never experienced that so I find it intriguing. I have struggled to understand someone,yes - but that's not the same.

Really mumbling is not the same as a "really thick accent".

Also, just because you think that only people from a particular part of the country or certain upbringing can be "taken seriously", it doesn't mean that that is the same for all work places.

As for MrsDeVere's comment above: Do not confuse that made up, mash up dialect of the streets as an accent, working class or otherwise. That "mash up dialect" is an accent. My family are from different backgrounds and have different accents. I live in an area where almost everyone has a different accent. It is inevitable that over time, dialects will change as people are becoming surrounded by a variety of accents.

My goodness accent snobbery annoys me. The white middle class way is the right way though, init?

Frankly, really, it beggers belief that someone who uses the word 'incomprendible' in their first post on the subject feels they have any right to criticise others' communication. Especially when you admit these children don't have speech and language problems.

Maybe you should seek 'listening and thinking' lessons?

Reallytired why is it that so many wc people are employed in call centres in Glasgow, Belfast, Newcastle? There are fair smattering of graduates but also people Ruth very few qualifications who are able to speak clearly and make themselves understood. This is also true of the emergency services.

People are quite capable of adjusting to the situation

I said upthread I went for a job interview in London with a northern accent but far from broad and later found out the Canadian & Southern English interviewers didn't understand a lot of what I said ... they thought I said I'd been working in Oxford - it was Knutsford etc etc etc
I live in Scotland now - in an area with a really distinct accent - apparently Scottish born people often can't understand it...
When I first came here I was stood behind a man in a petrol station who paid for petrol, bought a packet of fags and some chewing gum - I really couldn't understand a single word ...it was like a foreign language, I was but the guy serving obviously did (and he didn't have such a broad accent).
Now unless that guy had a more understandable 'for best' voice too he couldn't have really worked anywhere else...

Luckily not many people have that strong an accent but I've lived here 13yrs and occasionally I find myself nodding and smiling and only understanding one word in 5 ...
(I guess it is a bit like tv programs where someone has a really broad accent of some sort and they subtitle it )

Jesse the word 'underclass' is just horrible. How would you define it then?

Is it just the word that makes you squeamish Take, or do you reject the idea that the underclass exists at all?

You sound like one of those people who has to whisper the word cancer as if by not saying out loud you can pretend it isn't real.

I don't care about semantics, I know what the underclass means to me, whatever you choose to call it.

So let us all become clones.

I will admit my south London accent has dulled a bit - but I seem to be one of those people who reflect the accent of those around me in a desperate bid to please

I also want my children to speak properly. But if they have an accent, so be it.

As long as we understand each other, that is fine.

However why should we seek to all become middle class? Who said that way is best?

Labour put socio-economic discrimination in the Equality Act.
One of the first thing the Tories did on getting into power was take it out.

ukhumanrightsblog.com/2010/08/26/goodbye-to-the-public-sector-equality-duty/

Actually that link isn't great so don't bother reading! But it is fact anyway.

I believe it's a made up concept captioned by a truly horrible word. What is it that I'm trying to pretend isn't real?

If somebody wants to call the urban destitute an underclass, that's fine. It doesn't matter what you call them. If you don't agree that they contain sufficient similarities to be members of an individual class (irrespective of what the class is called) then that is in itself a valid argument.

(Equally destitute rural people are not included for reasons not given here.)

Looks like some working class children are too busy being tasered and locked up by the police to have time to work on their middle class skills. I bet they're card-carrying members of the underclass to boot.

There is also an "Over Class", It has nothing to do with Education Background or the way you speak but everything to do with wealth and power.

"Over Class" is a new Class and is most relevant today , because it links Wayne Rooney with Bankers and wealthy Reality Stars. Over Class has nothing to do with accents but with Consumerism and the ability to buy what you want or behave in whatever manner you like.

It is the reason why old Class designations are becoming outdated and incoherent with society today. Under Class exists in the form of not being or Wanting to to join in with mainstream society , in many cases not though financial reasons but though lifestyle choices.

There are people in the Under Class with reasonable Jobs but they choose to live in a could not care attitude to anyone else ( Including their own kids) ,Under Class and being Poor are two separate things.

It's interesting, there had been a perception that in the days of Lucky Lucan, (bishops, cardinals, priests and public schoolmasters aside) that the privileged members in our society could get away with murder, either because they had the connections to ensure that they weren't charged in the first place or if they were charged then they could afford the kinds of lawyers who would see that they got off. (Lawyers to the Stars they're called today. But I don't think such modern lawyers deal with murder.) I think Lord Somerset's sentence and Operation Yewtree are supposed to be part of a movement against privilege and celebrity being trump cards over the justice system.

My own belief in the underclass is that large parts of it have no choice in regard to their membership. (Volunteering to join it is not something I'm really aware of.)

Also I think we have fallen into the trap of making this all about accents, and I think that was only a minor part of what Gove was driving at.

it's all to do with money.

Look at the Middletons and how Carol has cleverly manouvered her family into high society.

her daughter would never have the lovely life that she has now without a ton of money behind her.

If you have or make enough money no matter what class you come from you can overcome a degree of prejudice ...but...I don't think it is all about money...

Look at threads about houses on here talking about tacky houses -'I bet it belongs to a footballer'...flashy, overly extravagant ... no class.
Also IME rich people with 'new' money are more likely to be rude to people who provide a service - like waiters, cleaners etc - maybe because they know that could have been them (you would think they would empathise) or because deep down they aren't comfortable with it, frightened that they will do something that gives them away - shows them up as 'fakes'.
Soft skills that you can't teach? or maybe you can teach but not the confidence that goes with it ...
(Spot someone who has worked in that kind of role where the clients were extremely rich - and every single time someone was incredibly rude/unpleasant/obnoxious (so if I could I would find out more) they were new money/ married to new money ...)

My belief is that being rude to others (it doesn't matter what the recipient's occupation is) is a function of how one was brought up, not how much money one has. Also living an extravagant lifestyle isn't necessarily connected to having money. Some such people are simply risk-takers.

The Old Money/ New Money thing is tiresome, irrelevant , and out of time with today. If a family want a "Flashy House" and Big 4X4 s with "Spinners" on the wheels then great. People have been employed selling, servicing the cars Housekeepers, Gardeners Nanny's 11+ Tutors all benefiting from the families people like to call.

Columngollum. You are correct its rudeness , arrogance and being totally out of touch that is the worst traits anyone can have. In my experience the people showing these traits more often, are those from the perceived Higher Class or better Educated people.

That are the worst Traits anyone can show....

I think having money gives you some freedom, I would far rather be common and financially well of than common and poor.

However I know that people sneer at me because despite the fact that we have quite a bit of cash we having " working class taste" - I am actually not sure what that is but I just know that I tend to have different taste from people I see as middle class.

I have also seen threads on here in which people have linked to houses and talked about " new money", " chavvy" and footballers wives and they have looked like my home!

Also IME rich people with 'new' money are more likely to be rude to people who provide a service - like waiters, cleaners etc - maybe because they know that could have been them (you would think they would empathise) or because deep down they aren't comfortable with it, frightened that they will do something that gives them away - shows them up as 'fakes'.
We are not millionaires but we have an amount of money coming in that makes us well off, so I guess we could be seen as new money. We would never be rude to a waiter or cleaner - precisely because we have grown up with people judging us for doing that job.
I am not a fake anything is I don't care about giving anything away. I know that people think I am " chavvy" or " common" and therefore have nothing to hide.

I knew I was struggling to explain what I mean -
Lemon said it was all about money - but I don't think it is ...
My point is you still get prejudice if you have money....and you can be aware of that prejudice...and that can affect how you behave...

I think Philoslothy you sound fantastic - like you are confident with who you are - you aren't trying to pretend to be someone you aren't...you are who you are...

I think the problem is when people feel they do have to pretend -be fake..(I really think it is a confidence thing). Maybe that's true in all walks of life/classes...just my experience in those roles is at the richer end of the spectrum...
and I did mean to say I don't think that is true for all people with who are self made (better than 'new' money?) - just true of some...

I don't know if rudeness is the right word - not even really arrogance - a lack of respect or ...
I know the best way of dealing with them is by taking the piss ...be overly nice, overly helpful and a super groveler! They love it - takes the wind right out of their sails...and do completely miss that it is a piss take...