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Parents 'should go abroad to avoid family courts'

441 replies

ScrambledSmegs · 13/01/2014 12:40

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25641247

Yep, that's the BBC. Currently trending as one of the most read pages on the site.

I know they've tried to make this balanced by referencing CAFCASS, but it doesn't feel like much balance when the headline is something as scaremongering as that. It feels quite irresponsible.

Yes, I know that they're trying to drum up interest in their Panorama program, but I think they'd have been better off not publicising JHMP and his ramblings. Unfortunately, he's dangerous. Ridiculous and foolish, but dangerous.

OP posts:
Devora · 10/02/2014 22:48

I don't know what you have done for abused children in your life, redding, but I'll bet it's not one zillionth of what Lilka has done - not just for her own kids, but in her consistently warm and wise advice to all of us on here who are raising traumatised children.

I don't understand your point about equality of rights - are you saying we are anti-equality because we say the children's needs come first? Damn right they do. Not the first time I've heard somebody who disagrees with that hold it up as some kind of lofty principle, but you do it with particular elan.

Devora · 10/02/2014 22:51

redding, please do show us one case where you can prove that a child has been adopted because of hearsay, without evidence, or without proper investigation. Just one.

Spero · 10/02/2014 22:58

Fucking hell Devora, stop fucking well asking for fucking proof of any of these bat shit crazy assertions, that just isn't playing the fucking game.

Spero · 10/02/2014 23:00

But yes, Redding, if you are still reading and haven't run sobbing from all my norty words - just one example would be great.

HollyHB · 10/02/2014 23:48

PART ONE OF TWO

Spero wrote: Holly, sorry to break it to you but there is a reason that the right to a private life is recognised and protected as a fundamental human right. ...
But that doesn't matter for a baby does it? Because you wouldn't accord that child any separate humanity would you? The baby only exists as a possession of the mother, you concern yourself only with her 'rights' - you don't give a flying fuck about the children in these cases.

You are sorry? I give flying? I'll let it go, but sarcasm, if that is what it is, is unwelcome. The acerb falls flat.

Now, in fact I care greatly, and especially for the right to a private AND family life, they go together. Let us examine the facts here:

Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights
Right to respect for private and family life

  1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
  2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Yes, that ECHR which Britain wrote more of than any other country and now flouts more of than almost all EU countries.

A baby is entitled to her private and family life. That means she should be with her mother if both are alive unless one of the exceptions in Article 8 applies.

First exception. National security and public safety, well yes, if the mother is into Molotov cocktail raids or similar perhaps. That kind of behaviour will lead to criminal conviction of the mother and both mother and baby lose family life together.

Next Economic well-being of the country. I suppose British Social Services takes the view that seizing the babies of an impoverished mother to be unconsentually adopted into middle class and wealthy families is OK? I propose that the economic benefit to the country is too weak to justify on that basis and all other EU countries agree. This British outrage of seizing babies for no more reason than the poverty of the mother has to stop. Instead mothers should be helped with their poverty, not punished for it.

Prevention of disorder and crime? Get real! Mothers who hold ill will towards their babies do deserve to lose them. Including paedophiles and sadists. Those are not the kind of mothers who emigrate to avoid injustice from toxic Local Authorities.

And so we come to the health exception, so gleefully embraced by mental health professionals and the SS. Well, it is greatly misunderstood and dreadfully abused is that medical exception. It applies only to the PROTECTION of health. It does NOT apply to the remedy of ill health and it does not apply to the promotion of good health. I submit that the British psychiatrists and SS have overreached and gone beyond PROTECTION. Far far beyond. Certainly if the mother has a dangerous contagious illness it is appropriate to dissolve the family temporarily, I truly can't see any mother objecting to that. Other than that health is (should be under ECHR Art.8) limited to stopping the baby's health from deterioration. Thus it does not include situations where the baby's health is bad but it is not getting any worse. It does NOT include mothers who cannot provide sufficiently for reasons of poverty or for reasons of the mother's ill health, or the mother being incapacitated but stable, or on psychoactive drugs (both illegal recreational drugs and the more damaging psychoactive drugs that psychiatrists prescribe) or for having to share housing with undesirables. Unless of course it rises to the level of a criminal conviction.

HollyHB · 10/02/2014 23:49

PART TWO OF TWO

In short barring those really obscure cases involving clearly wicked people like paedophiles, a baby should not be losing her mother, who is her family, where the mother bears no ill will but in some way just cannot cope.

The harmful people are the British mental health professionals, including if you like social services professionals who do not understand (do not care a fig for; are not even trained to understand) the limits of the medical exception to ECHR Art.8. That it does NOT extend to improving things for the baby, it ONLY extends to stopping things getting worse. That is the law that Britain CREATED, that is law that Britain signed on to, that is the law that Local Authorities uncaringly flout every damned day. They don't even know in most cases that they are not honouring the human rights of the child. The right is not to a goody goody life with lovy dovy doting guardians, the right is not to prosperity, or even improving health, the right is to FAMILY, and I personally guess (without justification, you all keep the court judgments secret remember) that removal of infants from the mother is happening five times more frequently than it should be.

They just don't understand, they think that creating a nice childhood is a decent thing. It is not even a HUMAN thing when you overreach like this. We all deserve life, life - rough, tumble and all, good and bad, we don't deserve the blankets of cotton wool that these do-gooders try to inflict wherever they can. Dammit they would stop death itself if they could when we all have to die, it is an essential part of living. Without death there would be no life, no-one but no-one gets out of this life alive.

Human rights or "their way", that's what it comes down to. They need to be stopped, they and their secret injustices are destroying society as we know it. Let me correct that, they have already destroyed decent society as we used to know it with their secret underhanded methods. William Beveridge must be turning in his grave.

I wrote the above at one sitting, doubtless some fool will pick on a flaw somewhere so as to avoid the central issue.

flummoxedlummox · 11/02/2014 00:04

I could possibly be a fool for pointing out that Article 8 is a qualified right

Devora · 11/02/2014 00:13

You think abuse and neglect of children is 'really obscure'?

You deride efforts to rescue children from this as wrapping them in cotton wool, as some kind of prissy insistence that children must be in 'goody goody' families with 'lovy dovy doting guardians'?

Jeez, lady, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. If you weren't a stranger on the internet, a stranger who bears my family no good will, I would tell you about what my child was born into; I would tell you about the pain she has endured; I would tell you about what has happened to her siblings who were left within that sacred 'family'.

As it is, I'll just hold back from telling you where to go with your depiction of families like mine as some kind of prissy, 'goody goody' escape from real life. And as for me being a 'lovy dovy doting guardian' - no; I am a mother. This is my child's family now. For you to insist that she would have been better off left where she was shows that you have absolutely no idea what this is all about, or about how high the stakes are for these children.

Lilka · 11/02/2014 00:28

Those are not the kind of mothers who emigrate to avoid injustice from toxic Local Authorities

Wrong. Nothing more to say, it's just one of the silliest assumptions you find among the anti-adoption crowd. That a) someone always knows when they are being abusive and is aware what abuse is, and b) that an abusive parent would not care if they lost their child. The truth of the matter is that abusive parents fight to keep their childrenall the time, however serious the abuse, and in a few cases that might extend to feeling the country.

It's not a great example, but Lianne Smith anyone? "Fled" the country, and then killed her children. It is very sad that perhaps if she had not left Britain, her children would be alive today

In short barring those really obscure cases involving clearly wicked people like paedophiles, a baby should not be losing her mother, who is her family, where the mother bears no ill will but in some way just cannot cope

Then do tell what is supposed to happen when NO amount of support can enable the mother to cope? Let the child suffer neglect and abuse? How cruel. Also, are you aware that pervasive and serious neglect in early life is actually frequently more damaging to a child long term than sexual abuse or physical abuse, because of the effect on their brain development?

Yes, children do have a human right to a family and home which is secure, safe and in which they will not suffer neglect or abuse. If this, for whatever reason, cannot be achieved within the childs home of birth, whatever the intentions and feelings of the birth parents, then the child must be removed. If there is no prospect of the situation improving so that the child can return home within a couple of years at the absolute most, then you have to ask yourself what is better for the child - a whole childhood bouncing around care with no permanence, or a childhood with a permanent adoptive family who have given them a life long commitment of love.

HollyHB · 11/02/2014 00:34

You think abuse and neglect of children is 'really obscure'?

Didn't I write that an ECHR Art.8 exception does apply (since Art.8 is a qualified right under 8(2)) where the mother did in fact bear ill will towards the child? This seems to be the situation you describe (since you mention 'really obscure'), as contrasted with the more typical situation (not yours) of the mother who means well but fails nonetheless.

Lilka · 11/02/2014 00:38

Only one of the anti-adoption crowd can manipulate this into a "childs right to be neglected and abused"

Yes, I entirely agreee Devora I really don't think you have any clue what you're talking about Holly I don't think you have any grasp or understanding of the effects of trauma on a childs brain, and what it means if a child goes through abuse/neglect in early life. I also do not think you have any grasp of the issues that some birth families face - the total lack of understanding of some basic truths such as many abusive parents do not understand that what they are doing is abusive and no amount of support and explanation will make a difference, or that abusive parents fight for their children with deep conviction and possibly love, and think that they are the victims, even when their child is in a terrible physical and emotional state bcause of what they have suffered, is a good clue there

Lilka · 11/02/2014 00:51

ps. You know, I am absolutely 1000% utterly certain that all my children needed to be adopted, deserved to be adopted.

I have an almost 18 year old. Who, due to her early life, literally has been handed a life sentence. She has permanent emotional and mental health issues, permanent injuries, her brain has been damaged. She has to take medication to help her function better. She has never been able to achieve academically...or make friends easily...or have a healthy relationship with food....but on a much more fundamental level, her ability to love, allow herself to be loved, to trust, to form relationships, to feel empathy, to feel other emotions has been greatly impaired. The impact of that on her life? Immense

Does her birth mum love her? Absolutely, 100%, of course she does
Does her birth mum "bear her any ill will"? No, of course not
Did she ever bear DD 'ill will'? No

Did her birth mum intend to hand her daughter a life sentence? No. I am certain she started parenting with love and the best of intentions, but sadly because of the situation, there was never any chance that she would be able to parents appropriately

But this isn't about her, in the nicest way possible
It's about my daughter and her rights and what she needs

Why does whether her birth mum loves her or bore her 'ill will' make a difference to what happened in the end? Answer me that. Why does that negate DD's best interests?

HollyHB · 11/02/2014 00:53

Yes, children do have a human right to a family and home which is secure, safe and in which they will not suffer neglect or abuse.

So where did that come from?

I certainly agree that it is highly desirable that children (indeed everyone) have those things. But human right? It is not in UDHR, ECHR or any of the other charters or conventions on human rights that I can find.

Spontaneously inventing human rights that don't actually exist (if indeed I'm right and what you have set forth is not to be found in any treaties, conventions or charters) is confusing. Even if you think they should exist.

Yes, it a family and home secure, safe and free from neglect or abuse is highly desirable. But does it rank above human rights? Well, does it?

Reasonable people will differ on where human rights rank. Some hold the bible as higher, I don't. I believe that UK should not withdraw from ECHR, because it would make us a pariah nation. Our Prime Minister thinks contrariwise. We differ.

Well intentioned behaviours destroy civilisations. We have a case in point with the secret courts.

HollyHB · 11/02/2014 01:13

Why does whether her birth mum loves her or bore her 'ill will' make a difference to what happened in the end? Answer me that. Why does that negate DD's best interests?

It is not a kind or easy to bear answer, but the truthful answer lies in ECHR Art.8(2)

8 (2). There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

That is not to say that it wasn't right and proper that your daughter be released for adoption on some other basis, something other than the protection of her health. I suspect she was and that is good.

You cannot start from a proper desirable outcome and work backwards to invent law that fits it (as so many judges do but pretend not to). And the reason why not was perhaps best expressed by Tennyson - Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

As in Britain today. The public has small and declining trust in Social Services and now, pursuant to the data grab, in the medical profession also. Whatever the policies were trying to achieve they cannot be worth the cost.

I am so sorry about your daughter hardships.

HollyHB · 11/02/2014 01:14

I intended to write: I am so sorry about your daughter's hardships.

Lilka · 11/02/2014 01:39

Can I just point out that the people who know the most about these rights are the judges of the ECHR. There have been a few cases in the court about adoption in the UK. I had a look back a while ago to see these cases. A total PITA trying to find the judgements. There were a couple related to adoption in recent years. The court determined that there was no violation of article 8

These were NOT parents who bore their children ill will, they loved their kids. But that didn't mean their rights were breached, so sayeth the judges of the ECHR

In fact, nothing in article 8 says anything about intentions. The intentions of the parents do not affect whether care/adoption would protect the childs health etc does it?

Lilka · 11/02/2014 01:55

And I have nothing more to say on the subject of the law, because I know very little legal specifics. I get knowledge from reading court judgments and I know bits of UK adoption law that are directly relevent to adoptive parents, but that's about it.

I know next to nothing about human rights law, so if I can see cases from the ECHR holding no violation to article 8, in circumstances which are not sadism/paedophilia/involve loving parents etc, well that's good enough for me

redding13 · 11/02/2014 02:00

@spero

Hearsay was indeed the wrong thing to say I apologize. What I meant was SS using circumstantial evidence and guess work. Would you sentence someone to life in prison based on circumstantial evidence and a checklist? The whole point of RE:B-S was to set out guidelines to help ensure the rights of families involved. IF it was not needed in the first place Munby and the two other judges would not have need to set such a judgement.

Spero · 11/02/2014 07:34

Redding, thanks for apologising and I am sorry for swearing.

But neither do LA use 'circumstantial evidence'. Would you like to read our post on 'significant harm' on www.childprotectionresource.org.uk?

We provide there some useful links to case law which may reassure you - or anyone else reading who is troubled by what you say - about the serious degree and nature of evidence required before a child can be removed for adoption.

Spero · 11/02/2014 07:41

Holly, I am happy to be the fool who picks on the rather glaring and gaping hole in your analysis of Article 8. You are sadly utterly and completely wrong to say that article 8 puts no POSITIVE obligation on States to act to protect the article 8 right.

Not only does this positive obligation exist, the UK has been found in breach of it on numerous occasions, not least the tragic case of child's in. Bedfordshire who foraged for food from dustbins for years until they were removed from their parents. When they were older, they successfully sued for large amounts of compensation on the basis that they should have been removed much, much sooner.

True, often Article 3 is pleaded - the right to be free from degrading and inhuman treatment, but the factual nexus is the same.

Some families cause enormous harm to the mental and physical welfare of the children within it. And these children deserve our protection.

And when rescued they deserve as much stability as we can give them - and for most children this will mean adoption.

And if the parents who hurt them aren't happy with that? Tough for them.

Spero · 11/02/2014 08:07

Redding - in fact this post on the threshold criteria might also be helpful to you.

It is really and truly NOT the case that care orders and subsequently adoption orders can be made on the basis of 'hearsay' or 'circumstantial' evidence.

www.childprotectionresource.org.uk/category/the-law/key-legal-principles/threshold-criteria/

Spero · 11/02/2014 08:09

And see what Lady Hale said in Re B in 2013 - full citation in the post I have just linked.

Finally, where harm has not yet been suffered, the court must consider the degree of likelihood that it will be suffered in the future. This will entail considering the degree of likelihood that the parents’ future behaviour will amount to a lack of reasonable parental care. It will also entail considering the relationship between the significance of the harmed feared and the likelihood that it will occur. Simply to state that there is a “risk” is not enough. The court has to be satisfied, by relevant and sufficient evidence, that the harm is likely: see In re J [2013] 2 WLR 649.

Spero · 11/02/2014 08:11

sorry to bang on at no doubt tedious length, but to say that the courts take children away on a 'whim' with no real evidence is a really dangerous and damaging lie.

If trust has been lost in the child protection system, at least let it be lost for the right reasons, not for lies and misrepresentations.

HollyHB · 11/02/2014 15:30

Thank you spero, I think you have touched on the key point in human rights (incidentally as enshrined and well expressed in the ECHR) and which government seems to have missed and that is why our nation has lost its way.

It is that government does have the right to step in and dissolve its citizens' families if need be in order to prevent the health of those citizens becoming worse, including pursuant to unhealthy conditions. But government does not have the right to dissolve families to remedy bad health, nor to eliminate unhealthy condition, that is not actually getting any worse than it already is; nor to do so on behalf of hypothetical future citizens. Emotional as well as physical matters need to be interpreted in that context.

And of course there are other valid reasons for dissolving families unrelated to health, most obviously violent crime of any kind.

It's really frustrating that politicians and lawyers, so many of them, do not understand these fundamental principles of human rights. I fear it is because they simply do not care, that their attitude is "I know best and I will twist the ECHR to suit my agenda".

Yes? Or may we just agree to cordially differ?
And I too really must get out and get some exercise, howling winds notwithstanding, living in the tundra wastelands again is no excuse.

HollyHB · 11/02/2014 16:11

to say that the courts take children away on a 'whim' with no real evidence is a really dangerous and damaging lie.

People should not be saying that and if they are it is indeed dangerous and damaging.

What I am reading in activists' and journalists' reports is that real evidence is presented but that real evidence usually cannot be effectively challenged due to process secrecy. And in those rare cases that it can be challenged in open court (in France, Ireland, Netherlands, Spain) the evidence is, upon reexamination, contradicted by other evidence that is found to be credible.

Resulting in the present situation that, right or wrong, British social services now lacks credibility and is not trusted by ordinary people. The public, especially overseas, simply will not believe what they say because they have been caught time and again swearing on oath that evidence is valid when it is found not to be. I don't think they are intentionally lying, I just think they are misguided by bad government. And now all of Europe knows it.