Why I No Longer Feel Comfortable Wearing a Poppy

[Geckos48]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/madeleine-fry/poppy-day_b_4169581.html

very eloquently put. Exactly how I feel about the whole debacle.

November 11th should be for those who selflessly gave their lives in the World Wars, not those who chose to fight dubious campaigns abroad.

Oh dear god. I have read the whole thread and firstly and to lteve and to the other posters who are, or have or who have family serving.

I would hope the the op is a rather naive teen who clearly hasn't got a clue, but actually I realized that is insulting to teens, hell my 14yr old knows more about history than the op does, in fact so do my 11 and 8 yr olds.

You have no clue about most of the work the armed services does, purely because you don't hear about it, my dad served for over 20yrs including stints in the Falklands and the gulf amongst others. He also spent time in Africa building schools and setting up sanitation and water supplies, giving up his own time off to do it.

If you are so sure that the forces are the route of all evil and are doing it all wrong why don't you get off your area and actually do something? But you won't will you, you will biuy a white poppy and pat yourself on the back. Its pathetic.

Geckos48. You say taht you are against wars and those that fight it. Your dad was a RAF man. You are against him aren't you?

Who makes these advanced weapons that need specially trained personnel?

BAE Systems mainly, a civilian company.

LtEve put it better than I ever could.

I absolutely do not support war, however I accept that the human condition has always led to conflict and that it is an unpleasant inevitability. I do not like the Help for Heroes ideaology, although they do valuable work, because servicemen are not heroes simply by virtue of wearing a uniform. They are men and women from all backgrounds and walks of life. Some are stellar human beings, some are utter eejits: in other words, they're just like the society they serve.

I wear a poppy because I think that the RBL does a wonderful job.

I also wear a poppy because my husband is a soldier. I am proud of him and the job he does. He is a decent man and an honourable, loyal, dutiful and courageous officer. He believes in service and sacrifice and courage - both physical and moral - and had demonstrated that in his years of service.

He led a unit in Afghanistan and is justifiably satisfied that he did his job to the best of his ability and that he led his men (and women) by example.

This does not mean that he lacks critical thinking or that he is a warmonger.

Next Sunday, he's involved in our local Service of Remembrance. The following Monday, he'll be visiting our sons' primary school to talk about Remembrance.

Gecko, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how badly-argued and naive it appears to me (and others) but you have to afford me (and others) the same courtesy.

The Forces do not cause wars - they prosecute them on behalf of the nation as decided by the politicians we vite into office. They also provide other vakyable services in time of (inter)national need.

My husband deserves the respect due to anyone who does an honest job, no more and no less.

Remembrance Day is about those who have died, not those who serve currently.

"vote" and "valuable".

Bloody phone!

Late to the thread, but there are massive assumptions being made here. Like 'conflict is a feature of the human condition' - well not really, we got to where we are by compromise and co-operation and diversification of roles - shooting each other is'nt the hallmark of humans.

And really, the 'honesty' of a job doesn't elevate anyone at all. jcscot - history is littered with highly criminal people who were 'honest' in their endeavours.

And...if we think drug and people trafficking should be stopped, then we have to enhance border controls and sea-avenues. That doesnt mean giving armed people something to do when they don't currently have any forriners to kill in their own homes. For instance.

How about a lovely big bowl of PEACE for everyone. Free from pain and inhumanity. Available to alll the world over.

That'll be called cannabis Double

How about people wearing a poppy of either colour or both colours, or not wearing any poppy, whatever they are comfortable with?

You say they ruin lives abroad. They save many lives too. Hundreds of thousands of Kurdish people died (including relatives). What about the hundreds of thousands who were saved? My mum, my brothers, my sisters, me- and, indirectly, the children we later had- we have been helped. The war might not have happened if there had been appropriate and peaceful intervention before, or if foreign companies had some morals. Soldiers did none of that. They came in, they saved lives. I disagree and (sometimes) hate some of the actions by the west, in supporting Saddam, but soldiers were the ones dealing with the aftermath,mthey weren't the cause and helped.

And Did you know that more girls were educated under Saddams rule than ever had been before? Not for the Kurdish, though. Many girls ended up sold into prostitution in countries like Egypt. Oh, unless they got killed first.

Geckos Have you read TwitTwoo's last post , what are your thoughts??

Well You, I'd think the indictment Twit refers to is the failure of govts and companies to act morally, rather than exploit circumstances and sell arms and do deals with despots. But I don't recall ever the British army being detailed to protect the Kurds in N Iraq, as a humanitarian effort. Secure Baghdad and the Gulf for oil supply purposes yes. Kurds were/are strung out across into NE Turkey and with Turkey being keen for EU membership, supporting a demanding minority in their country would have been seen as 'not on

So for example, would the British army 'go in' to 'help' Kurddish people as an interest for their self-determination? Or just to quel another potential 'troublesome' minority?

How are Kurds doing, post-invasion?

Pan

Late to the thread, but there are massive assumptions being made here. Like 'conflict is a feature of the human condition' - well not really, we got to where we are by compromise and co-operation and diversification of roles - shooting each other is'nt the hallmark of humans.

No, it really is. Look at the number of neolithic and bronze age skeletons which show evidence of trauma. Otzi died from an arrow wound.

Yes...your logic is overwhelming....until you possibly look at skeletons of all ages who died of, well, being old. No trauma. Just died.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Just popped back to see how this one was going along.

OP I commend you for cheering me up this evening as I have been on a bit of a downer. This thread has amazing comedy value even more so because I think you are actually trying to be serious.

I went out this eve was worried I might have missed something.

Hahahahahahahahaha!
Geckos, you are so naive! And incapable of backing up anything you've claimed so far!

Night all

I think its awful that people consider war to just be a natural part of life that we just have to make the weapons for deal with.

I spoke about Iraq earlier, we TRAINED Saddam and supported him with military aid for years before we decided to turn on him and start a war.

You cannot separate the two, what needs to happen her is stringent regulation of the arms trade, a situation where every country is given the opportunity to farm and support themselves and life is tolerable and realistic for all people. That will stop terrorism, human rights atrocities and all the other stuff we go to war for.

That is not an impossibility, as I said, for each bomb we build we could build 10 schools and fund them for 10 years. Thats a massive power and potential. We dont need to destroy a countries infrastructure and culture to free them. We need to support them and, if they are cunts to each other, trade embargo and other non-violent acts of protest.

This mindset of 'we need war' is illogical and Roman, it doesnt work and it doesnt solve anything.

Pan

Yes...your logic is overwhelming....until you possibly look at skeletons of all ages who died of, well, being old. No trauma. Just died.

How tiresome.

You said that you didn't think violence was 'a feature of the human condition'. There are plenty of examples of early humans who died a violent death. These examples occur across all societies and in all countries and at all times.

Now that isn't to say that everyone died violently, and IMO it is lazy to try to imply that is what I wrote. I didn't. I pointed out that violence is part of our history and part of our makeup. Just as it is part of the makeup of every species on the planet which has to fight for food, territory or mating rights.

It doesnt have to be part of our future though.

We could start by stopping building weapons that destroy whole countries and starting fights with simply everyone.

I don't know how you can be quite so naive, Geckos.

Did your dad fight in the Falklands and you dont consider him a hero because you dont get on with him? Or he has a big ego, or he abandoned your mum, or you were years without seeing him?
Maybe it has all got confused in your mind.

"starting fights with simply everyone"

"Simply everyone?" Really?

Gekos once again I will make the point that all that you are talking about is levels and levels above the boots on the ground. The whole ethos behind remembrance is that we separate the political and remember those that have fallen doing their duty, which in a way the country has asked them to do by voting in governments which act in whatever way they do. You have said you cannot separate the two but the majority can, do, and will year in year out.

It's obvious you have strong feelings on this..... I just think remembrance is the wrong thing to use to highlight this. Put simply your beef is with the wrong people.

Also you have encouraged people to read up on your side of the argument. I really think if you're as invested in this as you seem you should look further into why we need a defence capability and what may happen to us without one, also a look at more modern warfare might be interesting. Some of your claims about what the forces do and don't do are not factual and I think based on giant leaps of your opinion.

The Tommy poem springs to mind reading this thread.