Why I No Longer Feel Comfortable Wearing a Poppy

[Geckos48]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/madeleine-fry/poppy-day_b_4169581.html

very eloquently put. Exactly how I feel about the whole debacle.

November 11th should be for those who selflessly gave their lives in the World Wars, not those who chose to fight dubious campaigns abroad.

The Cain website has some useful stats on deaths during the Troubles here, you can tabulate by responsibility, status, year, age, gender etc etc, as well as doing more complicated cross-tabulations.

The years 1971-1976 are by some considerable distance the bloodiest of the Troubles, both in Britain and Northern Ireland. The 1990s don't compare (although the financial cost of somewhere like Canary Wharf and the psychological effects of the mortaring of Downing Street are, obviously, important).

Points about the white poppy have been asked and answered earlier in the thread.

Scares me too Kim. The world is such a violent place, guns are too easy to get hold of, bomb making instructions can be found with a swift bit of googling, as can town hall/shopping centre/hotel plans. The terrorists are getting cleverer and sneakier and we need to be ahead of the game.

Or we could stop selling them guns and giving them reason to hate us?

Ahh yes Skylerwhite, I suppose I meant 'in my lifetime' or at least 'in my adult lifetime'. The figures are horrible aren't they, and of course there are still so many missing bodies

Why have you posted an American video Geckos? Are we talking about the USAs involvement now? I can't keep up with all your track changes

'track changes' what are you talking about?

If you've been to Iraq you will surely remember seeing some Americans there? And, you know, fighting with them?

Anyway, the video gives a good view point on the war and how it has affected veterans.

Yep, exceedingly grim.

I think there were 17 or so original 'disappeared' or missing bodies, although some of those have since been found. Some small comfort to their families.

The fact that over 3,000 unsolved murders remain is a scandal in my opinion.

I do think we are going a bit poppy overboard these days (look at all the defendants in the phone hacking trials dutifully wearing their poppies - yet it is not even November yet). I think it's become almost a signifier of being part of the establishment, an insider, rather than a meaningful act of remembrance.

I also don't think we have a recent military record of which we can be hugely proud.

And yet I do think that current servicemen and recent veterans deserve our respect. Most of us believe that we need an army (fair enough if you are an out and out pacifist I think the author of this article is probably a Quaker). We are also a democracy, and the government we elect decides what our servicemen and women do, they do not get a choice in it. In my view that means we need to either support our troops altogether or not at all, not pick and choose to support the veterans of conflicts we feel good about.

(There is also a separate discussion to be had about WWI, hundreds of thousands of men volunteered for what was a really rather dubious and pointless cause).

I would change that to 'people are dying and not for good reasons'

I think that having no clear way of supporting a country after we have toppled it is so awful. We are not making anything better and just creating hatred for ourselves.

As the economic stability of a country improves, the human rights improve. Imagine if Britain had been bombed and destroyed by a 'well meaning' foreign country in the Victorian times? Would we be any better now?

Is Iraq better now that we have destroyed the infrastructure and toppled ancient monuments?

I dont think it is. Someone once said to me it takes 30 years for a country to 'recover' from the tragedy of war, but yet we dont wait 30 years to see whether countries will grow out of human rights issues. We were given that opportunity and we did it. We can't then turn around and wage war on people for following the same course that we did.

Imagine Britain without its monuments, old buildings, history and books. Thats what the people of Iraq face, because we destroyed it. We did not 'bring them peace' we forced it upon them and at what cost? People are still dying and economic recovery is no closer than it was when we first bombarded our way in.

We have to learn from OUR mistakes and allow others to learn from their own.

Kim, were you on the thread (another anti-military one) in August when I spoke of my experiences in Iraq and in Bosnia? For me it was always more about the civilians than the actual 'wars'. I think the British Military are fantastic at peacekeeping and stabilisation. They make friends with people, they sympathise and help. They listen and ask rather than simply ordering. I am still in touch with people I helped in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq - and I know a lot of soldiers that are the same.

As good as the training is, I don't think the American Military are as good at that. Theirs is more 'Force' whereas we are more 'persuasion'. We are highly trained, and good fighters - but we use our minds as well as our might.

I remember that thread, you said that the war in Iraq was worthwhile because you built a school and taught some kids Welsh.

Hopefully government cuts will eventually prevent the UK from intervening and creating more deaths to commemorate.

That would be amazing catfood

I heard someone say we couldnt afford another war. If its a matter of affording, we shouldn't be going in the first place!

We didn't really support Germany after WW2. It got carved up and used up for decades.

A previous poster has just made a v good point. Many of the battles of WW1 were spectacularly pointless and wasteful...OP, I feel that you have romanticised both world wars, viewing with hindsight. I really don't believe you can separate the armed forces then from the armed forces now.

How do you feel about British inaction with regards to Syria? I personally am glad we didn't intervene because I don't believe Britain should always be the planets police. But that stems from my respect for the lives of the British forces.

All this debate ignores the real issue and is a convenient diversionary tactic for a government (whoever is in power) that will not look after serving and ex service people in an acceptable manner.

Why should charity fund this regardless of whether one approves of funds going to career service people or not?

More effort into highlighting this disgraceful neglect might be a start.

Ahh, you are the namechanger I thought you were. Good oh.

Actually I said:

I have seen active service in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq. I am extremely proud of the things I have done in those countries, and for the persecuted people of those countries. I am pleased to still be in contact with people from those war zones, people I have helped and formed friendships with. I was humbled and over the moon to be asked to attend the British Citizenship ceremony and celebrations in 2002 for the family of a young lady that I spent 6 months with back in 1996 following the destruction and devastation of her village, including the murder of a number of her immediate family

I've never killed any one. In fact, quite the opposite, I helped to deliver the baby of a child who had been raped and tourtured. I arranged for that child and her baby to be treated by the British Military (more soldiers) and was instrumental in getting that child, her baby and her remaining family into safe accommodation. That baby is now an adult itself and I am proud to be an 'honorary auntie' that loves hearing from them

And

I'm proud of the school I helped to build. Proud of the female children getting their first education at the age of 12. Proud of the removal of the 'village elder' who had his 'pick of the girls' as soon as they had their first period. Proud of helping one family escape. Proud of getting innoculations and vaccinations to areas that were previously 'no go' and children routinely died of things like chicken pox and measles. Proud of the doctors and nurses that were able to treat the men women and children injured by mines and IED planted by their own 'people', long before NATO stepped in. Proud of the engineers that inserted a full drainage system and one working flush toilet (actually that was just as a bit of fun, as the villagers wouldn't use the toilet but found it funny to have it sitting in the square...it worked too!). Prouder still at the engineers who bridged a river that enabled families to come together for the first time in over 5 years. Even proud of the soldier that punched someone rather important in the nose for hitting a child across the face with a religious text, breaking his cheekbone in the process (soldier was disciplined for his action, but said Orders that he would do exactly the same again). Oh and proud for leaving behind my DVD player and a stack of Disney DVDs...even though I wasn't supposed to

and I'm proud to have been part of a force that deposed a cruel and sadistic murderer. Someone who committed genocide. Someone who ordered the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians simply because he didn't like their creed and religion. Thousands of people....more than were killed by NATO forces and in far more horrifying and excruciating ways

^All this debate ignores the real issue and is a convenient diversionary tactic for a government (whoever is in power) that will not look after serving and ex service people in an acceptable manner.

Why should charity fund this regardless of whether one approves of funds going to career service people or not?

More effort into highlighting this disgraceful neglect might be a start.^

YY Mignonette, I pointed that out upthread.

I know you don't really NEED my support in this thread LtAllHallowsEve, (you've got it covered!)
But I'm proud of you and your colleagues too.
And I'll be wearing my poppy.

That's very true Mignonette, I have been appalled to hear how little support very seriously injured soldiers are entitled to.

I remember your post LtEve and it made me think again and revise some of my opinions- as I have posted to you before

I don't doubt that LtEve's point about the hearts and minds approach of the British Army is accurate now, but let's not kid ourselves that this was always the case. That was a long and slow realisation on the part of the British Army, driven principally IMO by their experiences in Ireland, north and south, over the course of the 20th century.

I wear my poppy with pride and will continue to do so. I have a huge amount of respect for the servicemen and women who have died or been injured in the line of duty, in whatever conflicts they have been sent to, wherever in the world.