Another child who starved to death by sounds of things.

[JakeBullet]

On the BBC news website.

Police found the mummified remains of a 4.5yr old child in a cot (in 2011).

Wearing clothes which would fit a six month old!

So

He didn't start school and nobody noticed.
Mum was an alcohol and cannibis user and nobody noticed.

Can't link as am on phone but can hardly believe that this child slipped so easily beneath the net and nobofy realised until his body was discovered two years afyer he dies!

Surely we have to be asking that ALL children are seen once a yeae for a mandatory welfare check.

I agree with Nancy666 why didn't the dad notice?

No I was commenting on men like my grandfather. He was at Normandy, he was involved in hand to hand combat, he was sent into some of the camps after liberation... How screwed up must that have made him? He was a gently (bit grumpy) man who adored his family and let us kids run riot as he handnt the heart to tell us off. My great GF was gassed in WW1 and didn't become a violent or heartless man.

Mum remembered her school being attacked, seeing Japanese POWs coming home to die, being bombed out, having class mates killed... She was a very gently and compassionate soul.

WW1 and 2 gave us whole generations of people with every reason to be screwed up beyond help.

I always feel in these cases that it is easy to say you dont believe in the death penalty or long prison sentences and we must understand WHY people do what they do - UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO YOU and a member of your family is attacked or god forbid murdered.

We were burgled last year and the scum bags attacked the dog. I am not going to say how but it was pretty horrible. They were young lads from single parent families and one mother stated she couldnt disipline her boy so didnt bother anymore. Well, that's Ok then, allow them to rob other people and attack a defenceless animial with a weapon and then we can excuse it by saying they have had a 'hard life'.

I was car jacked many years ago. Again young lads in a stolen car, they rammed our car, beat up my then boyfriend and again are we excusing them as having a 'hard life'? What about the victims in all of this, the dog who is unlikely to ever be the same again. My ex boyfriend who walks with a limp. What about THEM!

'Silverapples There is a civil liberties aspect to be considered in your proposal. However the other issue is where would the time come from for professionals to have a "right of access" to the child at any time.'

This I know, Nana. But if things remain the way they are at present, all we are looking at is more battered, burned and abused children. And more deaths.
I'm getting weary of the impotence in the face of brutality.

People need to feel they are responsible for their decisions, be that not working, working, having children without a stable partner or no visible means of support etc.

As a very small example. A friend who was very good academically was removed from his full scholarship school in the UK and his parents decided to move to New Zealand. The education was not the same and they came back a year late claiming they were conned. Still say that years later.....

At present we are excusing behaviour and people are feeling they can do what they like.

I dont think yearly welfare checks are the answer and it will never happen anyway.

theres no increase of battered abused children,we just hear about it more,if anything i would GUESS that there are a lot less.

I do wonder whether every single woman giving birth shouldn't be issued with a card that says:

"Congratulations on the birth of your beautiful baby.

Babies need: food, warmth, kindness and love.

If at any point and for any reason you feel your child is not getting this, then please call [number] straight away for impartial advice and help. You will not be judged and it may be the best thing you can do for your child."

I had to chase for things like vaccinations, and we weren't given the information on registering for schools, which seem to be sent out automatically to most people.

Same here, and dd was born in hospital, attended clinic regularly etc. For a while it was as if she didn't exist.

Please tell me you are not being serious Duchesse because if you are then I think you must be very naïve - and which particular number where you thinking of giving on this card??

I'm not going to continue the debate with people who refuse to accept that the way we are brought up by our parents has an enormous affect on the adults we become and the way we parent our own children. I have seen at first hand how these so called "scumbags" live and the way they have been treated since their earliest days, and how they have grown up to become reckless and impulsive because they have never been shown any other way of living.

Children learn by copying - I don't think anyone can disagree with that can they. If they have parents who respect each other and their home and meet the needs of their children, then this is the "model" that the children will copy. Conversely if the parents are uncaring towards the children and more interested in their own needs and have no idea of good parenting, then the children will copy that "model" - this cycle of deprivation has been turning for hundreds of years and will continue to turn.

The witness mentioned in the news report was present in the house but remained unnamed. Think that must be one of the other children.

Poor poor little boy .

I haven't seen a news report where the siblings are mentioned. I find it almost amusing the way the press keep referencing her benefit fraud, as tho that's the worst of it. Surely she wouldn't cancel it to conceal the bigger crime. It's all a bit dailymailbenefitcheatshysteriaesque.

In the grand scheme of things 2 years of falsely claiming cb is inconsequential.

It is less "continuing to claim CB" and more "never bothered to cancel it" like many other things. I think her life was a mess.....suspect the last thing she considered was the child benefit.

Horrible case.

There must have been other children as he was discovered when police went to the house after reports she was throwing dirty nappies out of the window.

That witness testimony does not sound like an adult either tbh. Very very sad case

seeing kids more wont make any difference,the people that do these kinds of things will find a way to get round anything,look at baby p,went into hospital with a broken back didnt he?hv went round and shed covered his head in sudocrem and his face in chocolate so she couldnt see the marks.look at daniel pelka who went to school every bloody day and saw teachers,it makes no difference.

The Bio dad was violent to the mum apparently.

you know what I dont even fucking care if that shithead excuse for a man beat her up.

DV is no excuse for this.

These cases have made me wonder how visible children are, really.

I work FT, and especially come wintertime I barely see the children on my street. there are families with babies that I never even see their kids.

I am a supposedly good citizen, but this could be happening near me.

I did the school run, and people are rushing. Maybe a small neglected Daniel would not even be noticed by most.

The only people that are around to see are OAPs, and SAHMs by virtue of them being around all day

Poor poor little soul

Sorry! Forgot to read original post! Both terrible and shocking cases.

The violent father did tell police she was neglecting him. They failed to follow it up. When police are called to DV incidents they are supposed to contact SS where kids live in the family.

When this case finishes. There will be another serious case review. No doubt it will show some of the usual factors.

I do wonder how this little boy slipped under the radar. He probably didn't go to HV or get immunisations and if he didn't where was the follow up? I would be very suprised if this little boy was not known to SS. If he was known then agencies have failed. If he wasn't and no one knew about him that is even more shocking.

I actually think that deep down most parents love their children. Even in the most chaotic families. They may have other reasons for not realising that they are neglecting their children- ie low intellect, an addiction problem, poor parenting themselves. Much of this is known while the woman is pregnant. I do not believe that people with problems of this nature should EVER be out of the sights of social services once they have children for many many years.

For everybody else confronted with unexpected problems such as MH issues, I believe that appealing to their love for their child ought to prompt them to seek help if there is an appropriate overarching parenting advice structure in place of which the number would be listed. So say the parents begin to have MH problems after they've already bonded with their child (and let's face it, most of us fear that we are doing the wrong thing at some point but the people who ask currently the questions and seek the help are very often not the people who really need it the most) if there were a truly impartial Samaritan's style parenting advice helpline staffed by suitably qualified people who do not judge and are not an immediate route straight into SS interference, it might help people who are struggling access help.

Let's not forget that in quite a a few of these high profile child murder cases in recent years (eg Baby P and now this one), at least one of the parents sought help for the child- maybe not in a classical "I'm really struggling and don't think I can cope please can you help" kind of way, but more in a "please for god's sake someone notice that someone is very wrong". These parents were in their muddled and chaotic way trying to get intervention but the signs were missed.

As for little Daniel Pelka I have no words to describe how let down he was by every single adult around him. How anybody can believe that it is ok to weigh 10 kg at 4.5 yo is beyond me, especially as he was trying constantly to find things to eat. To my mind of all these recent cases, only in his and Victoria Climbié's case did the adults in charge of them not seek any help at all for them.

Duchesse. I don't agree.

although I think it's rare I think there are some parents whose children mean as much to them as a tea mug or a sweater.

Very often the parents will be low IQ, emotionally stunted, unable to connect or form bonds with people and their kids mean the same to them as their other 'things'. There is no love.

Nancy I agree. Some people are chaotic but just need help but there is a minority who are sociopathic for whatever reason that have no ability to empathise or put someone else's needs before their own. There are also those with MH needs, those who have low intelligence and really do not know how to parent and also those for whom drug and alcohol addictions become everything to them.

Many people have different groupings of the problems.

Pity the sods who have to navigate through this.

I think this thread is more or less done, but I always like the last word(!) This thing about whether people love their children or not - I think there are people who aren't capable of offering unconditional love to their children, but that's because they never received it (nor anything like it) and can only pass on the "model" of parenting that they had.

I firmly believe that we can only pass on what we ourselves have received, and this is so clearly seen in parenting. There will be exceptions of course, but in the main we parent in much the same way that we were parented, and for those of us that were fortunate enough to receive the unconditional love and care that a child needs to thrive, we fail to understand how it is that all parents can't love and care for their children in a proper manner.

Duchesse I think you are somewhat unenlightened about the workload that social workers are struggling with, up to 30 cases at a time, and many of those child protection cases, or those at risk of ill treatment. I mention this as you state that some categories of parents should never be out of the sight of social services. There is a civil liberties issue and perhaps more pertinently where on earth is the time going to come from to keep "in sight" all these families. Social workers cannot cope with their statutory responsibilities in the arena of child protection, and since this govt swung the axe at budgets, there is a real crisis.

Who is going to staff this "overarching parenting advice centre" I wonder and what would be their remit. It would have to volunteers as there is no funding for any such thing as far as I am aware. I'm sorry to say that I find some of your ideas somewhat simplistic.

Also social workers do not have a "right of entry" into people's homes. If referrals are received about possible abuse or neglect of a child/ren then sws will visit, and sometimes have to work hard to get a relationship going with the parents so that the door is "left open" as it were. It's a very finely balanced thing, and takes great expertise. I don't think many people have any idea of the difficulties and stresses of working in child protection and judging when the children are in danger.

I would like to dispel one myth social workers are not allowed to remove a child/ren from their parents and so many people think that they have this power. It is only courts that have this power, and social workers know that they must able to evidence that the child is suffering from significant harm before they request that the Court make an Order for the child to be removed.

You can't say that about everyone though NanaNina, I'm sure just as many people who had shitty childhoods are keen to make sure that they don't make the same mistakes with their own children. If they remember being hit they will swear to never hit their child because they know how it felt, etc etc.
My dh had an awful childhood, abandoned by his mother, separated from his siblings, in and out of care/foster homes and out to work at 14. He is a great dad and very loving to his dcs, but he is always conscious of giving them the stability and family life that he never had.

I agree with Pixel. It's a sweeping generalisation to say abuse children grow up to be abusive parents. Look at Dave Peltzer (A Child Called It) he went on to have a son he doted on and write self help books.

I'm sick of people excusing these horrific neglect/abuse cases. She clearly knew that children required food as she was ringing for pizza a short time after he died. She was a former care worker and first aid trained. The neglect was clearly long term judging by his size. He was ill and she went to a pharmacist rather than doctor and then didn't declare the death. She was clearly concealing the abuse.

There really needs to be a system in place that if you claim cb then once the child is school age there are checks that the child is being educated, so enrolled in school or physically visited if home educated.